In this episode, Colleen and Leslie interview one of Jim’s survivors who has never spoken to anyone about the incident (aside from the police and her mother) in thirty years.

You can find the documents and pictures that support this episode here.

These cases serve as a reminder of the devastating consequences of domestic violence and the importance of seeking help if you or someone you know is a victim.

• If you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

• For confidential support and resources you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.

• Support our work with a donation: https://okappleseed.kindful.com/

• Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed at www.okappleseed.org/

• If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.

• If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.

• Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.

• Follow the OKAppleseed on Instagram at @OKAppleseed and on facebook at facebook.org/okappleseedcenter.

• The music in this episode is “I Can’t Make You Love Me” by Combsy.

Speakers:

Carisa, Colleen McCarty, Leslie Briggs

 
Transcript:

Colleen McCarty  00:00

This episode contains references to accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular in language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. We also discuss coercive control. Please use caution when listening.

Leslie Briggs  00:23

Last week we finally gotten to the subject for which this podcast is named Operation Wildfire. Operation Wildfire was the act of a desperate woman, the act of someone who no longer has faith in her justice system to protect victims from her abuser, the act of someone who was powerless to stop someone else from getting hurt. Some would argue that she acted recklessly. Others would argue that she was bold and brave. One reason the courts didn't believe care about Jim's violence is because she made herself less credible by associating with his other victims. For becoming friends with Kristen, going on a cruise with Kristin and Amber, and continuing to go out of her way to warn his girlfriends about his behavior. All gave rise to questions about her truthfulness.

Colleen McCarty  01:11

Welcome to panic button. Operation Wildfire. This is episode 10. Eureka. If you're just joining us, we recommend you go back and start listening from episode one. The idea that by associating with each other they've heard their cases is a harsh reality. It not only calls Kara's case against Jim into question, but all of these women's cases, it allows Jen to continue to say these women are just crazy bitches who are all obsessed with him. Because we already don't believe women, more women compounded together unfortunately doesn't mean more credibility, it means more suspicion. Imagine if a group of men all alleged someone was violent, instant credibility. But multiple women claiming a man as violent. Instantly everyone starts saying witch hunt.

Leslie Briggs  02:07

When you're dealing with an unreliable witness, or one whose credibility has been attacked, or what we would call, quote, impeached in a court of law, you've got to try to rehabilitate them. You can do that through introducing corroborating statements, maybe you have the ability to put on character evidence for truthfulness. That's one of the exceptions to the no character evidence rule, which we talked about extensively in season one. Or, as we have here, you can put on a witness to testify to their independent experiences, untainted by the corruption of having worked as a group, which is the primary source for having attacked the other witnesses credibility in this case. So Arkansas.

Colleen McCarty  02:49

The crazy thing about the Arkansas case is that Kristen, and Cara have known about it for a really long time. It's not really clear to us how they came to know about it. But they put it on the flyer. Right. And it's only a police report. Right? Kristen spent years looking for this person. And they she was told when she called the Eureka Springs police department that you have to be a lawyer to get the full report because they had a partial report that did not include the name of the of the survey. It was like anonymized right. So they had that one, right. But they'd never had the name. They never had the contact information for this person. They could never find who it was. And it would have been incredibly helpful for Kara, in defending against Jim's defamation suit, possibly to have this person if it did go to trial. We were able to find it. We got the full thing, actually with Kristen's help randomly.

Leslie Briggs  03:57

Yeah, so what's weird about this, too, is that like Kristen tried for a long time to get the full report. And they kept telling her that it had to be a lawyer that would request it, which is untrue. I don't know why they would say that to her. So we requested it. And we got the report. And after we did, she went back and tried again and got it independent of us. She just I mean dog it about getting it. So once once she knew that we were able to get it. She tried again. Got it. And she was able to locate what she believed to be was was this individual.

Colleen McCarty  04:27

We had three or four people narrowed it down to that we thought it was and she was able to ultimately find who it was. And we contacted her. She didn't ever contact her right. Kristen didn't reach out to her. She just gave us the info. Yeah, none of the survivors have ever talked to this person.

Leslie Briggs  04:47

Yep. I've sent her a message on Facebook randomly. And it was almost instantly that she responded I asked her I was like, did you ever know Jim Luman? And the message I got back was "yes, he is a monster."

Colleen McCarty  05:02

So the memory was quite fresh.

Leslie Briggs  05:04

I mean, it was an instant response almost.

Colleen McCarty  05:08

Yeah. And like, I feel like you and I always go into people's "other messages." So like, they might not even see it because we're, yeah, we're sending messages without making friends or strangers to strangers all the time. That's fine. We're not weird.

Leslie Briggs  05:20

We're just trying to find people like that just for the podcast, but for many of our projects, we need community. Yes, so

Colleen McCarty  05:26

we look for people a lot. But the thing that's so remarkable about this person is the recall. Yeah, it was still visceral, very visceral. And she wanted to share. She really wanted to share and so let's quickly read what the police report says into the record of the podcast. And then we will hear from her.

Leslie Briggs  05:55

So the full police report from the Eureka Springs police department states that the date and time of the incident report was March 19 1997. The type of incident was a domestic battery third degree and it happened at the Crescent Hotel. In Eureka Springs. The method of attack says suspect bit, spanked, and assaulted victim. The description of the weapon is mouth, belt and hands. It lists the suspects name is James Carroll Luman II. And the complaintant is a woman named Carisa. And here's the narrative. "On Wednesday, March 19 1997. At 9:15am officers Fortenberry Jacobs and I were dispatched to the Crescent Hotel on a report of a hysterical woman in the lobby." I have issues with that right out of the gate again, where it's 1997. "Fortenberry and Jacobs arrived first and found the woman who identified herself as Carisa. She said her boyfriend had assaulted her and room 218 at 7am this morning after she tried to get him out of bed. She said he woke up angry and hit her very hard and lower back. She said he then pulled her onto the bed and began pushing her face into the bed when she tried to scream. She said he then bit her nose and stuck his fingers down her throat telling her to quit screaming she said he also pulled her bottom lip to the point of bleeding and Bit her on her right forearm. She said he then took off his belt and hit her on the butt and legs five to six times, leaving marks on both. She said she finally got out of the room and into the lobby to get help. Mr. Luman was arrested for domestic battery third degree Class A misdemeanor and transported to the Carroll County Sheriff's Office. Mr. Lumen was taken before Judge Kent cocci in Berryville at 4:30pm. And given a bond of $1,000 and a court date of April 18 1997. In Eureka Springs, it appears that they the officers also took Polaroids of the victim and those are in her file. Here's the affidavit of probable cause." And this court this case was in the municipal court in the city of Eureka Springs, so it wasn't even in like a District Court for the state. This was a municipal issue.

Colleen McCarty  08:12

So we're going to play the recording of our interview with her now.

Carisa  08:17

My name is Carisa

Leslie Briggs  08:19

and how did you know Jim Luman?

Carisa  08:24

I met him. Oh yeah, that's the whole Wow. I met him at work. And started dating him probably the day I started when I met him and actually moved some of my stuff into him into his apartment because I had been because we'd been spending so much time together. Really quick. I was young. I was stupid. And I moved in really quick.

Colleen McCarty  08:52

Where were you guys working at the time?

Carisa  08:55

He was a car salesman or worse than some dealership if I remember correctly. And I was working at a at a club in Tulsa.

Leslie Briggs  09:12

Do you know what dealership he was working at?

Carisa  09:22

No, I don't remember. That's okay. Anyway, he was like a car salesman. And there was a bunch of dealerships around. It was like one of the big guys like Ford or Toyota or something.

Colleen McCarty  09:34

Gotcha. And that was in Tulsa.

Carisa  09:37

Yes.

Leslie Briggs  09:39

And what was the name of the club that you worked out?

Carisa  09:41

No, I don't know if it was. Lady Godiva's or.... I don't know which one it was to be honest with you. I didn't do it for very long. And I've kind of put that whole life out of my mind. So I believe at the time I met him, I was 19. He came in with a bunch of his friends one night, I believe. Kind of like, you know, guys night. And you know, they always press "Well, can we get your number? Can we take you home?" first you always say no. And he just came in, and he was just really, like, polite and charming. And he wasn't trying to get me to go home with them. And he was like, No, I really want to just take you out to lunch. And then like, you know, like an idiot 'cause I'm only 19. And I didn't understand the world. I was playing in pretty much. And so I was like, yeah. And he was just really charming. And he took me out. You know, he never pressed anything. And he was just, you know, sweet.

Colleen McCarty  11:02

Do you remember where you had your first date? Your first lunch date at?

Carisa  11:09

No, he was Italian or something. It wasn't like, like, I could tell you every detail on that night. But I can't tell you all the details that led up to it. Yeah, if that makes any sense.

Leslie Briggs  11:24

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Well, so how long were you guys dating before you took the trip to Arkansas? couple nights? A couple of Yeah.

Carisa  11:36

I mean, I had I didn't have all my stuff there. But I had quite a bit of my stuff there. Well, I wouldn't say quite a bit, but I had enough. I had clothes and you know, stuff that you would think you'd wake up and go to work. I mean, I'd been spending the night over there, you know, probably three or four nights a week at least. And I mean, it was just good. It was normal. We, you know, we never thought there was it was really good until it wasn't. It was it was fine. It was he. He was He liked his job. I remember that. And remember, he really enjoyed it. It was doing really well. And I was making good money. And we were just having fun. And we went out to Arkansas to celebrate his birthday. I believe. Did

Colleen McCarty  12:29

you know his son or his ex wife, Dawn? No. As you mentioned,

Carisa  12:36

I didn't know he had a son. I knew I take that back. I knew he had been married. And that he didn't like to talk about it at one time we drove out into the country. And I don't know if it was a family member or somebody but he said I think it was like his brother or sister lived there. But I think later it was probably when he drove me by his ex wife's house, I think. I don't know. But that's just kind of what I got when I when some people were telling me stuff a couple years later. I don't know. But he said it was I think maybe it was he said it was his mom's but I thought it was really weird because we didn't stop.

Leslie Briggs  13:22

Right? Yeah, that is unusual.

Carisa  13:23

There's my mom's house. Wave!

Leslie Briggs  13:29

Right. So before the that you were you guys moved really quickly, right from just this date to moving in with him. And then you guys go to Arkansas. And yeah, that's the first to

Carisa  13:43

celebrate something. I think it was his birthday. Or his birthday was like next week or something. Yeah. And I had to be at work the next day. So we just went up there for the night.

Leslie Briggs  13:53

And so was that the first time any? You got any indication that something wasn't quite right.

Carisa  14:01

No. We didn't fight. Yeah, but I also didn't want to not because I couldn't argue with them because I'm pretty feisty. I just knew I didn't want to I I can't explain it. You just it's just one of those people used to look at me like now I don't feel like being feisty with this one. I can't. You just didn't. I don't know. Maybe that's why we didn't fight it's because I just okay, I was just like, okay.

Leslie Briggs  14:39

Yeah, no, I think I think lots of women probably make those calculations every single day in their lives of like, am I going to you know, say something here. Am I just going to let it lie and live you know?

Carisa  14:57

Exactly. To me. Jimmy was never Serious. I was there for my own reasons. And I had my own issues going on at the time I had a child myself, that was very young that I was away from. At the time, I knew him and so he was never going to be serious. It was always just fun for me. That's why I didn't like move all my stuff. And I just moved in enough to, you know, wake up the next day, so I had some comfort.

Leslie Briggs  15:27

Yeah, yeah. So would you guys go driving around like quite a bit? Was that a regular activity for you guys?

Carisa  15:35

I think so. Yeah, remember, we've got the country and it's so weird. I thought I would remember every detail of everything about him, but I just I've been so many years since I thought about it. And and it's not something I like to think about tell you the truth. And, you know, I just I forgotten a lot of the stuff but uh, yeah, I think we did drive around, move out so country a few times, and made the drive to Arkansas. So that was like, normal. Yeah. I would say it was normal.

Leslie Briggs  16:11

Yeah. And, you know, I have the incident report. I've been able to get that as part of a public record with from the police. And so I know some of what happened. So why don't you just tell me what you can remember.

Carisa  16:29

He wanted to stay in a haunted place. The whole thing like it was, I'm pretty sure it was his birthday, or was going to be his birthday. or some type of celebration. Anyways, we went up there. We got up there. Six or seven that night. We went to a couple of bars, but he got us a hotel. In this place that used to be like an asylum or something.

Colleen McCarty  16:49

I think it was The Crescent.

Carisa  16:56

Yeah, some haunted hotel.

Colleen McCarty  17:00

It had appeal to him that it used to be an asylum?

Carisa  17:04

Yeah. Yeah, it was supposed to be haunted. Ooh, we're gonna go in this haunted thing. You know? I don't know. I was just like, cool. Because that's kind of how I was about everything. Sure. Let's do it. And we went out, we went out to a, we stopped in a couple of bars. We were drinking a little bit that. I mean, we were walking around, it was still kind of chilly at night. And we got home, we got back to the room fairly early. We didn't shut down the bars or anything.

Leslie Briggs  17:38

It says then that you reported that he grabbed you by the throat.

Carisa  17:44

Like before? Um, yeah, yeah. But it was like, it wasn't. It was scary. But it wasn't. I don't know the sounds so bad. But it wasn't like he was like, at the time, I didn't take it as something I needed to be fearful of it was almost like he was playing around a little too rough. If that makes sense?

Leslie Briggs  18:08

No. A lot of sense. And also, you know, I think I just want to say this that. I called you I contacted you out of the blue today, you don't know me from Adam. And I'm asking you to tell me one of the most traumatic things that's ever happened to you. So like, I just, I want to name that and say that I appreciate your candor and your vulnerability with us because I think it's important. And then like another thing I just want to say to you is you don't have to make any excuses to us for anything that you chose to do or not do with Mr. Luman. I mean, we've been working with survivors now for about a year. And we have seen all kinds of different things. And we know that experts who provide services to domestic violence survivors have told us, you know, survivors, they know how to survive, they take whatever actions are required to survive and you so I just want to say like there's the you don't have to rationalize anything with us because we've seen it. But so that being said, I guess what, what wound up causing the big the big fight what happened after you guys went to bed?

Carisa  19:21

Nothing. That's when I was asleep. I woke up the next morning, I had to get to work. We had a three hour drive ahead of us. I woke up I don't know. I guess is still serving breakfast downstairs for a little bit. So I tried to get him up and he was like, I'll wake up in a little bit. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go downstairs and have breakfast. And I went downstairs and they were closing up their breakfast buffet or whatever they were doing. And I caught him from the phone from the lobby and I was like, Hey, if you want that just about to get up and you get it because they're about to close the build and He says, Yeah, he said, come on up and get ready with me and we'll go down, we'll have breakfast together, and then we'll hit the road. I was like, Cool. So I hung up the phone in the lobby, in the lobby there where, where the front desk is, is the phone I used and I went back up. It's like a grand staircase that I don't know if it's still there anymore. Because this big, the big staircase, like I don't remove it or something like out of an old movie, it's big staircase. So I didn't think that would be emotional about it all these years later.

Leslie Briggs  20:37

Yeah, take your time. Take your time.

Carisa  20:41

You know, there's a moment before every bad thing in life where you know it. And sometimes you only have that split second, know that this is gonna be bad. But usually you're not in tune with your instincts or whatever, then you go ahead and you take that step off that cliff or you walk in that door. But you know that there's that moment, there's always that moment, where whatever you call it, your guardian angels, your sixth sense, whatever, that helps you, not Tonko in there. And so I walked up the stairs, and he and the door was locked. So my doctor, I'm like, It's me. I'm here. And you open the door. And there was that split second step, and then the doorway, in a voice setup. Go in there. And of course, I pushed it aside and walked in. And that's what it started. It was that morning. It wasn't a night before. Yeah. So and it started. As soon as I walked in.

Leslie Briggs  21:49

You Yeah. Do you recall, I guess when it was finally over, you know, what happened when he was when he was done? being violent with you? What, what was the next thing that happened?

Carisa  22:00

Well, once I caught my breath. And I think, you know, it's funny, I always believed that it's when I looked at him with every type of honesty and truth that I could muster. And I looked right at him, and I told him, I loved him. That's when he stopped. It's weird to say that, but that's what it took. It took me actually not fighting him, and not fighting back. And I think that's what saved my life if you want to know the truth, because I thought I was gonna die. There were several times I think I passed out. He choked me out. It's just an interface. Just kind of some really weird shit. I just thought I was gonna die. And so I knew if I taught back, he would have definitely crossed the line. And I'm surprised he's not wanted for murder under investigation for murder, because there's nothing in his soul. This man goes to a place where he has no soul. And I'm surprised that he had killed a few along the way. I'm really shocked that nobody's caught him. Because i That's why I was looking at him. I wanted to see if they got it for murder, because I thought that the only reason I left was because, I mean, it was a lie. But with all this power, and everything in my soul that I could possibly muster and all the tightness in once in honestly that I could push out. I told him, I loved him. And that's when he stopped. So then the other thing was all and he was like, Get up, washed up. Let's go eat breakfast black and blue. There's blood everywhere in the room. I looked in the mirror, I couldn't watch that. Like, my life is torn in my face. And there was no way I could clean up. But I wasn't gonna argue with him. So I just come back and did my best. You know, and then he's like, ready for breakfast? And I'm like, sure. Let's go. Everything's fine.

Colleen McCarty  24:06

Yeah. When did you call the police?

Carisa  24:09

I had to get out of that room. So we walked down that beautiful. I don't know why that stupid thing, right? We walked down that staircase we walked down the staircase. And there was this little angel, paramedic this little. I don't know at the time she was older. So I was 18 or whatever. So she was like probably in her 40s A few things different than but this little angel of a paramedic. She was the first person I saw. And I grabbed her. And I bought this. I split it she was like maybe four tiny sort of Beautiful. So air touches mail. I mean, no, that's just the body. And I put her in between me and somebody helped me please. Man she put into action like she was waiting all day to be there. Jimmy, Jimmy's a big guy. And this little shorthand paramedic got us down down. You don't touch right. He was looking at her like he didn't know whether to be afraid of her squash or, you know, he was just in shock. And he tried to get around her. She just got right in front of him. She hollered over the desk. You called the cops. I mean, she was just friggin nailed it. And my angel.

Colleen McCarty  25:47

She just happened to be there. Karissa standing right there was she was she was there on a different call like she was.

Carisa  25:55

She was there for private reasons. She was normally just in regular clothes. Oh, wow. She was a paramedic later. Oh, wow. So

Leslie Briggs  26:09

easily, man, angels.

Carisa  26:12

Yes. My little angel. I never saw her since I've ever seen her before. But she was literally she like Jimmy is bigness. She's a little tiny of being little slender, tiny thing. And she was like, you know, bad dog. I just remember getting it right. If you're not going to hit me, you're not going to touch me. You're not going to touch her again. Like she was like, see it just don't fear. She had no fear. I knew I was gonna be applying. I was gonna be okay.

Leslie Briggs  26:47

Wow. That's I mean, yeah, I have goosebumps. To hear wild to hear all that. Yeah. Yeah. And so the police obviously arrived and you made a report to them.

Carisa  27:01

When they arrested him,

Leslie Briggs  27:03

and how did you leave him in Arkansas and go back to Tulsa? Or what happened after that?

Carisa  27:07

I did. I did. I think I even paid for a cab to take me from Arkansas to Tulsa. During the agent Yeah. I was I didn't ever want to see him again. I got a police escort to get out my stuff. But I didn't need them. Because there is that my stuff outside. I don't think I ever actually laid eyes on them again after that night. Because I never went back to follow up. I never, I never went back to follow up charges in in different states. You know, I didn't know this. But like in Colorado, the state will take over the charges. But I guess an Arkansas the state doesn't take over. If you're not there to follow up. They don't follow up with them.

Leslie Briggs  27:55

Wow, interesting. And nobody tried from Arkansas. Nobody tried to contact you try to like encourage you to follow up or anything like that.

Carisa  28:05

Back then I was kind of a hard bird to get a hold of.

Leslie Briggs  28:07

Yeah, it's not like today where I can Facebook. me on the phone with you and

Carisa  28:11

right. And it's not like I was very stable. Or you know, I mean, I think I listed my mom's phone number, which may be the same. I think she got a new one about 15 years ago. But I mean, she pretty much kept the same number she had for this kid. So and that was the youngest. So she was pretty used to be in the stable block for a while, you know?

Colleen McCarty  28:37

So you've told your mom everything that happened? Yeah. What was that conversation like?

Carisa  28:48

Oh, my mom's my person. You know, I didn't tell her till years later, though. I didn't tell her right away. I actually went back to my baby's daddy's mom's house, stayed there for a while and then ended up back in Colorado. And it was probably years later before I told her what had happened and why I left Tulsa so quickly. So she didn't know right away. I didn't want her to win worry or feel guilty because she couldn't protect me even though I was the one that chose to travel all over the world by myself. You know, I didn't. So I didn't tell her for years.

Colleen McCarty  29:25

Was Jim part of the reason that you left Tulsa? Did you think he was gonna come after you?

Carisa  29:33

Yeah. Well, no, I don't think he was gonna come after me. I think it was done. I don't. I never felt like he was gonna stalk me or he didn't know enough about me to stalk me. I was in. We didn't have that kind of in long talk and all that stuff. It wasn't a guy or in told you it wasn't a guy I was gonna be serious about it was just fun. It was sweet and charming and fun. So you didn't know a lot about me and I didn't know a lot about him. We just spend time together.

Colleen McCarty  30:08

A minute ago, you said that you had started talking to people after and hearing things about.

Carisa  30:15

Okay, I think I investigated it. When I told my mom, I think I tried to investigate whatever happened to the charges and everything. And I talked to somebody at the police department who said that she told me that she was a paramedic. So, but they didn't tell me anything else. So I think they are the ones that told me that the that the reason the charges were never pursued is because I didn't show up. So and that wasn't once I got in Colorado, around my family and my daughter, and everything, I had no intention of ever going back to Tulsa. So it was just kind of a, a new deal. And it popped in 15 years after that, before I even like, Googled his name, to see and the first thing that popped up on Google was some news report on him. And I'm like, wow, they don't have him for murder yet. I wonder why? Because he has. He's, what do they call it psychopathic? Where they don't have a soul. They don't have like that. thing went makes us human. I guess you would say he knows how to fake it really well, but deep inside, he doesn't have that thing. It's not It's he doesn't need to hurt. It was It wasn't mad when he was beating the hell out of me. He wasn't. He was he was doing it because it was like having tea or something he enjoyed. Like, I don't know how to explain it. That I when I looked in those eyes and told him I loved him, I knew Oh, I don't know why he stopped either. Because I don't think it really affected him. I don't think he cared one way or another.

Colleen McCarty  32:08

Like it was just a way to kind of disrupt the what he was doing.

Carisa  32:13

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's kind of weird to say this, but for a lot of it. Yeah, there's entire fist in my, in my mouth. Big guy, big hands. And that's what rip the inside of my mouth. And that's why what helps close the scene. There's a lot of Latin stuff. This guy was he had his entire and it was choking me. And that's how he was choking me. It wasn't grabbing my neck. Although he did do that. But a lot of time, he just put his entire fist in my mouth. It was really weird. So when we pull it out, is when I would look at him and tell him I loved him. So that he would stop.

Colleen McCarty  32:52

Wow, have you ever been contacted by any other victims that he had?

Carisa  33:01

Um I don't think so. Um, you know, I remember something. Sony girl tried to contact me once regarding a man I think we ever talked. Yeah, I mean, my life is so different. I'm a nurse for almost 15 years. I'm a travel nurse, like my life. And, you know, being a mom and my daughter and as best I could, and, you know, she turned out pretty good. And, you know, I just been that's so long ago that like that. I had that craziness. A long time ago. Yeah, for me, so a lot of it I don't think about so. I don't think someone did try to contact me. I'm not sure. I don't think I ever talked to him, though. At the time. I don't think I was ready.

Colleen McCarty  34:00

Well, thank you enough for sharing that was literally probably one of the most harrowing stories I've ever heard in my life.

Carisa  34:06

Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was a it was a moment. That's for sure. I don't know if you guys believe in guardian angels, but I do. Absolutely. And I think I had one that kept me alive that night. And I really, uh, you know, I've said it a couple of times, but there has to be bodies out there. This man is capable of killing. I know that in my heart and soul that he is capable of killing and not thinking twice about it. He's not a good guy, and under any circumstances for any reason. He is a bad man. Through and Through. Whatever he tries to pretend or it's just a facade.

Leslie Briggs  34:53

I'll say that you are not the first person to kind of just wonder about that. Like the There have been other women that we've spoken to that are like, I just don't. I don't know how if he hasn't yet he will, if that makes sense. Which is terrifying, right? So yeah, I do. So I do. I mean, obviously, I have the incident report that was made on the day that all this occurred, I do want to give you as the person who experienced and survived this, the option if you would like to, to describe it to us, you are more than welcome to if you would prefer that, we just rely on what's in the report and what you've already said. That's fine. But the actual assault, if you want to say anything, in your own words about it, I do want to give you the chance now to do that, but I don't want you to feel pressure to if you just aren't up for it.

Carisa  35:45

Okay. I think I told you everything I remember, I there was a lot of I mean, your Africa went up there. I think I was up in that room for like, it felt like an eternity to be at least a couple of hours. I you know, I like I said, My memories kind of fuzzy. But I mean, it felt like forever. But it really seemed from the minute I walked in the door until we left, I'm thinking it was two, maybe three hours. And it was. So I mean, a lot happened in that time. And I'm not sure. You know, I can't tell you all the details. Like I remember the mouth, the hand being in my mouth is the big one, and choking me. But there was there was more there was a lot of these, he would say stuff, I don't remember what he would say, but I remember he would say stuff like, I'm gonna hurt you, I'm gonna kill you. They'll never find your body. There's no one out here looking for you. Nobody even knows you're up here, like that stuff. And then he would. And then sometimes he would just sit there and just look at me. It was it was weird. You know, I'd be interested to see what that choice report says. I don't think I remember. Other than that,

Leslie Briggs  37:21

part of the purpose of this podcast is to really illuminate what it's like for survivors to try to get help through the system. And I know, you know, you were just a kid, you know. And it sounds like what you basically did was say, That's it. I'm going back to my community. I'm done with all of that, which I think is probably how I would have have handled it as well.

Carisa  37:43

But I never danced again. I never yeah, there's a lot of ways to change the direction of my life. It dawns me the way I would have done it, but it really did set me on a little bit of a different course. Yeah, that's for sure.

Leslie Briggs  38:03

Is there anything you would want them to know and understand about, like, Jim lumen as a person or getting help from the police or what just what it's like to survive something like this with your intimate partners or anything like Final thought you want to provide them?

Carisa  38:22

Don't be ashamed. For mistakes you make when you're young and any mistake you make, I think, you know, my thing was that my mom, you know, she's just, she's an angel in her own right. But you know, she just always told me that, you know, whatever bad choices I made, I didn't deserve what happened. You know, what, whatever choice a job I had at the time, or how I was living my life, it doesn't mean that I deserve what happened, that I put myself in a bad situation. Yeah, maybe. But no matter what, or how many mistakes you made, you don't deserve to have nobody deserves to have that kind of violence on their dreams. And it's not. And I know, through not only my mom, but also being on the other side of it as a nurse that takes care of women who are in bad situations sometimes, you know, it's you can always start making the right choice now. And as long as you're not ashamed and not afraid to talk, then we go, you know, you will find out what you need through that. I kind of caught off guard here. So I don't know if I'm wording that correctly. But

Leslie Briggs  39:47

no, that's great. I really think that you know, one of the things one of the biggest barriers that we always hear from survivors is the shame and the fear that accompanies, like, trying to get help and actually really speaking to people about what happened to you is one of the best ways to get help. But it's really hard to do that if you're wracked with fear and shame about the situation.

Carisa  40:09

And that's why I didn't tell my mom for years was because here I was, I was dancing. I was taking on my talk for men, which if you know, the way I was raised, like that was, like, I was raised in a very my parents had a bottle of wine in their cabinet, I think for six years at one point, like, they went to work everyday type of family, just, you know, so for me to go and answer party and all that said, they were like, a little girl, you know, like, and so I didn't want to follow it. I didn't want to have to stand in court and say, oh, yeah, by the way, I work at your local strip bar. But I didn't want this guy touching me that way, you know. And I didn't want to stand up and say that I was embarrassed of not just what happened with him, but my whole choice a lifestyle at the time.

Leslie Briggs  41:03

Yeah, so I think that's really valid. I mean, I think plenty of women have made similar calculations, you know, it's

Carisa  41:12

men that are like Jimmy picked up on that they picked up on that they know that you're not going to speak because you're making some bad choices. That's part of why they want you they know you're not going to cause them. They're not a guy like Jimmy wouldn't pick me up now. You know, because he knows you'd have to go all the way at this point. Because, you know, if I didn't make it out of there alive, I'd be on the Nine O'Clock News. Hey, watch out for this guy. I'd be holding space with his name on it. Like I'd be all have a kid. But back then, I was just a kid making some bad choices. And he knew it. And I guys like Jimmy, they know that. And that's what they picked up but they know that you're saying they know that you're not in a good place. And they prey on that. And that's why they get away with it. Because you don't have to follow through and you don't have the stability. You don't have the courage you don't have the experience and all that stuff that makes you stronger because at the time you're not a survivor or victim and they know that. Few I mean, this has been this has been really kind of kind of a good thing. You know, as far as you guys call it and stuff and my emotional right now. Absolutely. But I mean, I feel like, hey, 30 years later, I got to say something about it

Colleen McCarty  44:13

doesn't have to go down in history as the secret thing that happened to you anymore. No. That's cool.

Leslie Briggs  44:22

If you think of anything else you want us to know or you just want to point us in the direction of anything else. Don't hesitate to call me.

Carisa  44:30

Okay. No work. Thank you. We really

Leslie Briggs  44:34

appreciate you. We're so grateful. I mean, I know this is hard to talk about and I'm sure that you are emotionally exhausted after all that so it makes it nice to just be do something to take your mind off of it. But we can't thank you enough because we do think it will make a difference bringing this to light.

Carisa  44:50

I went okay, yeah. Okay,

Colleen McCarty  44:54

thank you so much.

Carisa  44:56

I call me if, if I could do anything.

Leslie Briggs  44:58

So good. ERISA is dating Jim. And those events occur about almost exactly one year before he meets Ember who you heard about in episode one.

Colleen McCarty  45:07

Okay, so the timeline would go married to Dawn divorced from dawn. Karissa, Amber, Amber, then that we know of Misty. And so on and so on.

Leslie Briggs  45:25

So, yeah, mestiza 2001 marriage,

Colleen McCarty  45:29

I think it's probably fair to say that like, from Ember probably wouldn't have known about her Missy wouldn't have known about her. Nobody would have known about her until Kristin.

Leslie Briggs  45:40

Right. I mean, she was an exotic dancer, too. And you hear about her talking about like, the, like, the shame of all of that. And like, just like the social stigma about like, who's going to believe you because you're a stripper?

Colleen McCarty  45:51

Like, I mean, we'd spoke to someone who will remain unidentified because they didn't want to cooperate and go on the record. Who said she was giving it away. You can't really trust what she says,

Leslie Briggs  46:03

right? Big Yikes. Big Yikes. What the fuck? Yeah, that individual sucks. That opinion. I mean, yeah, it's just like, but her descriptions of it are so visceral even like 30 years later, like, just, you can hear the emotion in her voice. I get goosebumps. I had goosebumps the first time. She told me I had goosebumps now the fourth or fifth time listening to that,

Colleen McCarty  46:34

that part when she starts talking about going into the room? Yeah. It's just like, I have had those kinds of feelings before. Obviously, it didn't end up as bad as this. But you just get those like, trust your gut. Yeah, it's a gut feeling. And some people be like, That's anxiety. But it's like

Leslie Briggs  47:04

anxiety is useful. Yeah.

Colleen McCarty  47:05

It's there for a reason. It's there to warn you about things that could happen to you. Maybe not always. It's sometimes it gets like its antenna gets a little crooked. But like she clearly knew there was something going on with him as soon as he opens the door. Yeah. And this whole thing, I just have to say, like, if I had to get back to work, and I tried to wake my husband up, to go downstairs to eat because we had to go and he was like, Nah, and then I was like, Fine, I'm gonna go eat by myself. And then they're closing up the breakfast buffet. And I know he'll be pissed at me if he doesn't eat something before we go. Because the breakfast is free. So you've got to call up to the room and be like, come on, they're closing and him still being like, Nah, come back up here. And then we'll then we it's like, it's gonna be fucking closed ass.

Leslie Briggs  48:01

Right. Like, there's like some annoyance, you know, maybe on her part.

Colleen McCarty  48:05

Yeah. And I'm sure it's like, okay, whatever. Like I my eggs gonna be on you. Yeah. But then, like, you gotta think from the other examples that we have the stories with this other woman? That that may have been like, part of what originated the anger with him. Was this like, he went to breakfast without me kind of a thing?

Leslie Briggs  48:31

Yeah, I mean, I think it really is that simple with him. Sometimes. I mean, with Ember, it was like he thought she was in a bad mood. Yeah, where she wasn't appropriately sorry. Like, she was sorry, but not sorry enough. You know?

Colleen McCarty  48:43

Yeah. Or she tried to leave her own house. And he said it wasn't her house. It's my house. And that was it.

Leslie Briggs  48:52

Yeah, just as like, I don't know that that I know, that was hard to sit through and listen, but we really wanted you to hear that this is this independent account. More than, you know, 25 ish years ago. Yeah, that just has been

Colleen McCarty  49:08

out there. And there are pieces of that assault that we hear refracted in all of these other stories. Like I think I just said while I was listening to it again, like it's like, it's like a kaleidoscope of all of these different experiences. Like his mood flipping on a dime happened to Kristen, him just going back to normal as soon as the violence as soon as like his mood for violence is over. That happened with Amber when he was laying on the bed talking and watching TV and drinking beer. Like we know that these little pieces of of behavior are consistent across all of these people when it's illogical. Yeah, and it just continues to build the credibility of all of these stories, right? It's like how would you know to make up He just went right back to normal afterwards, how would you know to make up that he sticks his fist in your mouth and pulls your

Leslie Briggs  50:06

lip apart, right, but they all describe the mouth fixation in different subtly different ways. But I guarantee it's all the same effort at Fish hooking, he's getting his his, like, myself, as I said that, he's like getting his fingers in that mouth to pull away at the lips and the gum and like, rip their mouth apart. And it's like, but some like you know, Ember described it as like, pulling it my mouth, she described it as, like tearing it my lips, putting his like whole fist in my mouth.

Colleen McCarty  50:37

Heather talks about it on the night before their wedding and Patsy's bathroom when he comes in rips or like grabs her by the mouth and pulls her out of the bathroom. Right? So like, there's this. It's like you're using the mouth as like a way to drag somebody around. It's a very specific and weird thing to do. It's

Leslie Briggs  50:56

not it's an interesting visual to about like, you're not going to talk back to me, you're not going to be independent. You're not going to have that attitude. Yeah,

Colleen McCarty  51:02

the this is one of the only times we've heard of him using his fists to choke someone by sticking it all the way in their mouth and his fingers down her throat, which that part for me like horror movie status is like 11

Leslie Briggs  51:19

Yeah, it's that's like, I cannot help but like, just do it a little bit and see what that's like. And it's like, so like, doing it on myself is like very intense. And like, the thought of not having control over the that is fucking terrifying.

Colleen McCarty  51:34

I mean, suffocation is like way up there on my waist, but I don't want to die. burning alive and suffocation drowning suffocate, yeah, yes, those are the worst. We all agree. But like, oh, to have to not only be struggling to breathe but be fighting against the force of somebody with their with that happening? Yeah. It's like, and then this other piece that she talks about where he doesn't have anything in his eyes like there isn't right Tisha said something similar about him going? Yeah, there says it let his eyes go black, different person or so? Yeah, that there's no soul there. We've heard that from other people. Like, these are things that like they're not the kind of things that you would like get together in a room and gospel about there are actually things that like happen in the privacy of an of an event like this and the universe of an event like this. That is like an fabricate double. I mean, maybe I'm just gullible. I'm really gullible, because I just believe them.

Leslie Briggs  52:44

Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a faction of people out there that would are going to always question their believability. They'll always disbelieve women, because again, like we've talked about this, too, if you believe that that happened, you cannot sit idly if you sit idly, and just allow that to be the reality that the police didn't follow up, and the courts didn't do anything. And that happened to her. And like, you believe that as a baseline, then you're living a life that Colleen and I are living that is extremely stressful. Like, I have to talk about this every fucking waking minute, because I need everybody to be as upset as I am. And we need to do something. Yep. And fundamentally, like the rest of our society just doesn't have the like ability to do that, or the

Colleen McCarty  53:28

sense of urgency like it's dangerous. We are not safe. We are not, we're not. The illusion of safety, is what we have.

Leslie Briggs  53:41

And if you like just as much easier to not believe it just allows you to continue with the status quo and the status quo is not working.

Colleen McCarty  53:49

Isn't it isn't it isn't? And it's like for this to have happened this many times with this many women and the same man. And every single time the same outcome?

Leslie Briggs  54:02

Yeah, it's like, maybe a few months in jail. Or maybe you go to an anger management course, because we know he's been through anger management, that didn't do anything, didn't fix it. And like, what are we doing?

Colleen McCarty  54:16

The person that is committing the harm, though, like, here's the problem, the person is committing the harm has to a feel that the harm they're committing is wrong. And be want to stop. Right. And he fundamentally does not.

Leslie Briggs  54:37

Right. And I think that like we talked about this with experts as well that like, there are people that I believe should be sequestered from society because they cannot change and they will continue to be violent for the people who can do and really genuinely want to change. We've got to get better at intervening. We've got to get better at intervening and repairing those harms and break think those cycles, but there are some people I do think I'm sorry. Like, this is like the carceral feminist and me that I think that there are some people that just can't change, that won't change. And the only other and the only option at that point is prison.

Colleen McCarty  55:18

Yeah, I mean, it just depends on what your philosophy of of what the purpose of the system is. Because it's like, if the purpose of the system is to stop every incidence of violence and and prevent it, then yes, what you're saying. But if the purpose of the system is actually just to serve as a deterrent, and an example of what could happen to you. And the rest of the time, we don't really care, then there is no point of it really. It's just like a kangaroo court.

Leslie Briggs  55:55

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I think it is now because these cases again, for whatever reason, it's like these are horrendous, violent crimes. Listen to that person. Listen to Carissa. Talk about that. It's a horrifying experience. It's a harrowing tale of survival.

Colleen McCarty  56:13

She's lucky to be alive, and there's no jail time. They never even they didn't even bring charge and didn't call her mom. They didn't even call her mom. She was what she was saying in the middle of that was that my mom was always on track for all of us. She always had was on the block for me because I was the youngest. She was used to getting phone calls about us. She never mentioned it. It was a he's gone back to Oklahoma. Get this off my desk. Case closed. Well, it's not my problem because he doesn't live here. victim is gone. She left. So there's no harm done. Because she's not here. No

Leslie Briggs  56:55

harm, no foul. It's just as an absurdity. So Carissa represents an important corroborating witness because she's never spoken to Cara, or Kristen or Heather, or Marcy, or Ember, or Tisha or Kimber or brandy, or dawn, or Misty or amber, or any other victim, or survivor. Chris had told two people about her views, her mother, and the Eureka Springs police and that's how it stayed for nearly three decades until we contacted her.

Colleen McCarty  57:25

You will ultimately have to make your own judgments about who you believe in this podcast. But as for me, I believe the women I believe the women who have come forward and filed for protective orders or police reports. I believe the women who haven't, who simply relied on their own networks for support, until society is willing to believe women as fervently as we do. We'll be here making podcasts and highlighting the audacity of systems that ignore discount, discredit and disbelieve, survivors who are crying out for change to how we respond to domestic violence.

Leslie Briggs  58:06

Believing survivors be they men, women or non binary people is the first step to overhauling a system in desperate need of reform. When we fail to take survivors seriously and to adequately investigate and prosecute their claims, we leave them powerless, and people who feel powerless resort to taking measures into their own hands. Next time on panic button. Operation Wildfire, the series finale. We're taking you through the efforts these women have made to seek systemic justice and where they turn when the system fails them over and over. How big is the box of acceptable behavior? What happens when you cross a boundary or employ the tactics of your abuser to level the playing field? Could you become a monster in your own right?

Colleen McCarty  59:02

You can find links to pictures, documents and all our sources in the show notes of this episode. These cases serve as a reminder of the devastating consequences of domestic violence and the importance of seeking help if you or someone you know is a victim. If you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or your local emergency number. For confidential support and resources you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233. Thank you for listening to panic button Operation Wildfire and for joining us and shedding light on the importance of ending domestic violence for good. I'm Colleen McCarty, and I'm Leslie Briggs. Panic Button is a production of Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice. were recorded at Bison and Bean studios in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Our theme music is by GYOM. Additional editing is provided by the wave podcasting. Our music supervisor is Rusty Rowe. A special thanks to our interns Kat and Allison. To learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed or donate to keep our mission of fighting for the rights and opportunities of every Oklahoman reality. Go to OkAppleseed.org