Most true crime stories are about one of two things: solving a mystery, or learning about how you can avoid being killed. Women around the world have become consumed with true crime, to the point that some of our listeners have admitted to listening to true crime podcasts as they fall asleep–because it soothes them. Usually, you’re watching and listening to stories about killers who have either been killed or been put in prison–so they’re no longer an active threat. Killers like Jeffrey Dahmer or Jack the Ripper. We can pick apart their methods, study the psychology, and run scenarios in our minds of how we would get away, or how we would solve the crime.

In truth, these kinds of sensational crimes represent less than 1% of murder crimes committed in the US. Far more common are women killed in domestic partner offenses. And even more common than those are women hurt and assaulted in domestic assaults. Oklahoma is ranked number two in the nation for the number of women killed by men.

Twenty people per minute in the United States are physically assaulted by an intimate partner. Perhaps the reason we don’t tell these stories, and the reason they don’t make the true crime top 100 list is because these incidents are so common. They hit pretty close to home, especially in Oklahoma. It’s interesting that psychologically we would rather focus on the 1% of sensationalized murder cases than on the 99% of intimate partner violence cases that gum up every criminal docket in America.

This episode is going to be tough. In a way I think we’ve been trying to protect our listeners from the particularly intimate and horrific details of Jim’s abuse. But here we are, it’s Episode 6, and we have to dive into the details of the domestic violence assaults that form the basis of this podcast.

These cases serve as a reminder of the devastating consequences of domestic violence and the importance of seeking help if you or someone you know is a victim.

• If you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or your local emergency number.

• For confidential support and resources you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.

• Support our work with a donation: https://okappleseed.kindful.com/

• Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed at www.okappleseed.org/

• If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.

• If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.

• Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.

• Follow the OKAppleseed on Instagram at @OKAppleseed and on facebook at facebook.org/okappleseedcenter.

• The song featured in this episode is Street Light by Branjae.

Transcript:

Speakers:

Heather, Christen, Leslie Briggs, Rusty Shouse, Marci, Colleen McCarty, Karrah

Leslie Briggs  00:00

This episode contains graphic accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular, animal abuse, and language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. Please use caution when listening. So since starting this podcast, we have had lots of different people reach out to us with their thoughts, opinions, and just impressions about what we've done. Over the last five episodes, we've actually heard from a couple of people who I would call on Jim's side, people who believe that the things that we're saying are untrue, or not factual. And unfortunately, none of them are willing to go on the record, or provide us or they have yet to provide us with anything that we could look at to verify or even consider as something that would warrant us issuing a correction. But this is my message to everybody listening. If you have information that refutes the things that we're saying, if you can provide us with documentation or personal lived experience that we can corroborate or consider, we'll issue a correction if it's warranted, we've always been willing to do that. So you're a little frustrated.

 

Colleen McCarty  01:19

I'm a little frustrated that people who claim to have information that would refute any of the information in this podcast are not willing to provide us documentation or records, or messages. And I think it's worth like going through how much time and effort we have spent trying to gather the truth. We spent 1000s of hours ourselves personally going over court records documentation. We've spent financial funds getting records from courts, we've had two interns working on this from January until May gathering information and sources and talking to everybody that we could find.

 

Leslie Briggs  02:08

Yeah, yeah, we cast a really wide net.

 

Colleen McCarty  02:11

And people continue to come forward. And whenever someone comes forward and says they have information, we always talk to them.

 

Leslie Briggs  02:20

My whole day gets eaten up, I will walk into the office at you know, nine in the morning, and I'll get a message and it's like, I need to talk to you today about this. And then my whole fucking day centers around getting that information to us, that's happened to me multiple times during this process where I had no plan, I was going to work on some other project, you know, and suddenly, I, I've just spent four hours confirming information and discussing it with somebody. And, you know, like making sure that we consider that perspective or that data.

 

Colleen McCarty  02:53

And part of the reason we're doing that is because there's been so much hearsay, there's been so much rumor and there's been so much gossip about this, that I think from all sides, it's important to have the record straight. And it's difficult in a situation like this. And so we've really taken a lot of time to do that. And I feel like we've done that justice. And if there's information that you or anyone you know, has about this case, or any of these cases that you feel like adds to the story, or contradicts, or rebuts, any of the information we've provided. It will be helpful for us to have that.

 

Leslie Briggs  03:39

And let me be clear, if you have an opinion about us doing X, Y or Z, it's not the same as having some evidence to contradict, so that's fine, you can send us that opinion, it doesn't mean it's gonna make it on the pod. Now on to your regularly scheduled episode.

 

Marci  03:57

I don't remember the ambulance ride to the first hospital. But I remember I think they took me and did a CT and then that's when they decided to transfer me to the trauma hospital. And I remember that drive because every bump we hit I hurt. I didn't realize at the time that I had four buckle fractured ribs, and one that was broke all the way through on the other side. So every bump we hit, it was like excruciating pain. Plus I had to compression fractures in my spine, from what I'm assuming from when he tackled me. And I had a broken nose.

 

Colleen McCarty  04:52

Most true crime stories are about one of two things, solving a mystery or learning about how you can avoid being killed. And women around the world have become consumed with true crime to the point that some of our listeners have admitted to listening to True Crime podcasts as they fall asleep. Because it Soothes them. Usually are watching and listening to stories about killers who have either been killed or been put in prison, so they're no longer an active threat. killers like Jeffrey Dahmer and Jack the Ripper. We pick apart their methods and study the psychology and run scenarios in our minds of how we would get away or how we would solve the crime. In truth, these kinds of sensational crimes represent less than 1% of murder crimes committed in the US. Far more common are women killed by domestic partners. And even more common than that are women hurt and assaulted in domestic assaults. Oklahoma is ranked number two in the nation for the number of women killed by men. 20 people per minute in the United States are physically assaulted by an intimate partner. Perhaps the reason we don't tell these stories. And the reason they don't make the true crime 100 list is because these incidents are so common. They hit pretty close to home, especially here in Oklahoma. It's interesting, that psychologically we would rather focus on the 1% of sensationalized murder cases than on the 99% of intimate partner violence cases that come up every criminal docket in America. I'm Colleen McCarty,

 

Leslie Briggs  06:30

and I'm Leslie Briggs,

 

Colleen McCarty  06:32

and you're listening to panic button Operation Wildfire. This is Episode Six, plenty of fish hooks in the sea. If you're just joining us, we recommend you go back and start listening to the story by starting with Episode One. Leslie, this episode is going to be tough. In a way, I think we've been trying to protect our listeners from the particularly intimate and horrific details of Jim's abuses. But here we are, it's episode six. And we have to dive into the details of these incidents.

 

Leslie Briggs  07:06

Yeah, it is disturbing. And so what we've decided to do is to allow these survivors to tell their stories uninterrupted by us as best we can. In this episode, we're going to hear straight from four different survivors' mouths about what they experienced with Jim. On one hand, it is tough to hear it all in one episode. On the other hand, if we string each story out across the season, we're worried our listeners will become desensitized to the violence. Another benefit of doing it this way is if you're sensitive to this kind of content, and you want to skip the worst of it, but still hear the rest of the story. You can skip this episode. So go ahead. We'll pause right now if you want to turn us off and go do something fun instead.

 

Colleen McCarty  07:51

So let's rip the band aid off and get started.

 

Leslie Briggs  07:55

First, we're going to hear from Christen. Christen is one of the survivors that you've heard a little bit throughout this podcast so far, episodes two, four and five. She was dating and talking to Jim around the time that he was also dating and eventually married Amber, and was he was dating one of our other survivors Karrah. Christen grew up in Cleveland and has known Jim since they were little kids. Christen and Jim started hanging out when they were both going through difficult periods in their lives as adults. Christen liked Jim, she wanted to be close to him. But Jim always seemed to be keeping Christen on the side. Christen grew up in Cleveland and has no gym since they were little kids. And Christen is well respected in that town even today. She's a realtor. When we visited the Cleveland lounge, some of the characters there spoke extremely fondly of her. I think if you ask anyone about Christen, they'll tell you that she's a good woman. Reliable, steady. least that's how she seems to me.

 

Colleen McCarty  08:59

She seems like she's got a good head on her shoulders. You know, she runs a business. She's responsible. She shows up when she says she's gonna show up. She's not like you would assume how a lot of victims of these situations are like I think a lot of people think these kinds of victims are like drug addicts or extremely impoverished, or they're just kind of desperate. I don't get that kind of a vibe from Christen.

 

Leslie Briggs  09:25

No, no, I think that those stereotypes. I mean, those stereotypes obviously are not the reality. And we know that but I definitely like Christen certainly doesn't fit the stereotype. As you heard in episodes four and five, Jim would take Christen on road trips, they would hang out together sometimes all night. Here's Christen's account of the last time she saw Jim, outside of a courtroom.

 

Christen  09:50

So I had been like on a little holiday with my sister and my mother. We rode that Heartland flyer. I think that's what it's called  it a train from the city to Fort Worth, we did a day trip. And we'd actually stayed the night the night before we boarded then and drove back, whatever. And he saw my Facebook posts and sent me a message about, you know, where I was at or whatever. And then I think there was an ask for me to come by, and I was coming through Cleveland on my way home anyway, so I thought I'll stop in. And when I got there, his brother in law Gene was parked in the driveway at Patsy's and, and he gets out there drinking beer all day, or whatever. And he gets out of his truck and gets into my car. And I can just kind of tell like, he's had too much to drink, so not going to be any fun. And he gets in my car, and we're just sitting next to each other. And before he had done like a buddy punch like this, what he would call it, where you punch in the arm just to kind of get you started, you know, to see if you want to fight back or gripe about it, or whatever, I guess. And I was like, Don't do that. And he did it again. Don't do that. And so I took a drink of my cup, and he flips the cup. And the drink spills down me. And I got out of the car and walked back to the trunk to get I think it was a blanket or something to dry off with. And then I walked to the passenger side where he was sitting, I opened the door, scared as hell and asked him, you know, I said, you know, maybe I can come back and see you another time. And what are you trying to kick me out of your car? And I said, no, no. And he like, very casually, like goes for a mint in my console first. And then punches me in the nose twice. Yeah, helping like by by the hair on the head back here. Like he took him in, stepped out of the car, I had the car door open now. There it was being nice, like maybe I can come another time, right. And he just pops him in and then starts kicking my ass. So punched in the face twice. And then I think it was immediately He takes my head like I he still has me by the hair. And he's pulling my pulling my head down like this way. So it's like almost like my chin is like so far into my chest like I can't, like I can't, you know. And so he goes from that position on down to the ground. And I'm right by the back wheels of my car. And it's in the gravel. And he's smashing my whole, like he saw this the back of my head and he's smashing my whole face into the gravel. And I can hear like things breaking in my face or whatever. And I can't speak because he still has me in that like locked in the fight, my mouth is closed still, you know, too, and I'm smushed down there. And he's kicking me in the ribs. So he pulls me back up, then I can speak again, I think I'm screaming. And we struggle. And he kind of stumbles down the ditch. And that's when I get free of him a little bit. I think that's when I went across the street. And then I changed my mind about waking those folks up. And I came back. And when he gets a hold of me the second time, he's we're somehow near like, he's in the driver's seat of my car. And he's holding my head again, in my hair, pushing it against the steering wheel of my car and the horn is honking and as mothers in the house and I'm thinking she's gonna hear this and see this and come out, not. And she's even up at that time getting ready for work or whatever. So this is whenever he does the fish hooking, which is what I call it, where he pulls, puts his fingers in my mouth and then pulls the skin away from the gum line and rips it. And so he does that. And then I think while he's doing that he's he beat me in the show on the farm. And he dropped his phone I think right about that time. Or he noticed that his phone was in the passenger side floor, so he must have dropped it previously. And that like catches his, you know, distracts him. He's got to get that phone. So he lets me go. It gets out of the driver's side, walks around the front of the car and I was like I'm out of here and I hopped in and I think it was already running. And I put it in reverse. And he was like, I think he grabbed his phone. And enough time. And I backed out. It's like, all at the same time, I almost ran over him. And then he threw a full beer. But like he was stumbling from, like, we're almost ran over him. And as he's falling down, he grabs a full beer and pitches it and throws it and I'm back. I'm like, going like this driving out from the driveway. And the beer hits the back of my trunk. Like, that's how crazy he's being. So I drove. I was in shock. I thought, Well, I'm gonna go to the police station, at the time the police station, and like they had just moved it from one location to the next. And when I drove by and saw that it wasn't at the place, I was like, oh, yeah, it's another place. And I was like, well, maybe I should just go home down to the park. So I went to the park, and was sitting there, and then the police drive by. And like, but this is the same street, but I mean, just three blocks up, where I couldn't use the police just moments earlier. So but anyway, they come in, they're like, you know, they see me with the blood. And they take my picture. Sure, I didn't even know they meant to say, hey, we're gonna take your picture, you know, they just took my picture. And I still haven't seen that, but not that I want to, but it didn't get brought to our hearing for some reason. Yeah. But, um, so then they asked me, you know, who did this to and the officer. I felt comfortable with him because he knew Jim. And he knew me, we don't go to school together. So I just told him it took it took me a little bit to want to say you know who it was, but I told him when they asked me if I wanted an ambulance and suggested I get one and I I refused. And then it was the next day that I went to emergency the emergency room rental.

 

Leslie Briggs  17:10

What do you think about that? The most like horrifying part of that to me. I just was sitting here she was describing him like smashing her chin into her chest. I just put a little bit of pressure on the back of my head and it was like really painful. So I really that just is horrifying.

 

Colleen McCarty  17:27

The weirdest thing about this assault to me is how just blatant it is like outside in front of the neighbors not even thinking about it. And also how casual of the relationship it is with him and Christen like it's just like a thing where we're highschool buddies and we go driving around you show me frog rock, we do it sometimes. It's not like this heavy sheet of passion. Like I'm beating you because I found I'm deeply in love with you like that's not what this is. It's just so like it's such a casual just violence for the sake of violence

 

Leslie Briggs  18:04

right and to be clear, like not that like I'm beating you because I love you is a better excuse. But like like there's something so insidious about him doing this to someone who is casually dating I mean

 

Colleen McCarty  18:17

there's a whole like whole jurisprudence about heat of passion murders and heat of passion, second degree behavior and the thought is when you're so emotionally invested with a person you lose it you write so you red and you get violent and sometimes things happen and whatever so maybe if you if you didn't premeditated it and it was just the heat of passion quote unquote, you don't have to go to prison for as long right? So fine. Okay, but then that this is just like pathological then

 

Leslie Briggs  18:52

I just like in the like this smashing up her face in the gravel, hearing the things in her face breaking. I mean, just like Oh, my God, Christen is a true fucking survivor, you know? I mean, after that, she was like, enough is enough. I'm out of here. So Christen actually went and got a protective order against Jim after that assault. Here's what she wrote. When Jimmy gets angry, he breaks things and is physically violent to women. He himself has admitted this. He knows he has a problem. Last June, we went to Missouri on a weekend trip. He woke up to find me looking through his cell phone, got angry and spit in my face. threatened to kill me, pushed me against the wall, ordered me to stay pulled my hair. We were in a hotel room. It was around midnight. He made me pack up and take him back to Tulsa and wouldn't let me use my phone and he pulled his gun out of the holster and laid it on his bag in the back seat. I drove him straight home. He threatened me and my children and left. Last January, I met Jimmy and we went for a late night drive. He was depressed about a custody case he was going through. He held a pistol to my head at my temple, then under my chin, and when I started gasping, and trying to catch my breath, he said, that's what I feel like inside 24/7 I want you to know what it feels like. You he eventually lowered the gun, and we drove to his mom's house. He picked a fight with his mom when we arrived. Broke mirrors through his phone and a vacuum. I left. On March 21 2015. Jimmy sent me a message asking that I stopped by on my way home from my sister's house and Fairfax. I got there. He got in the passenger seat. He hit me in the arm and I told him to stop. He said it didn't hurt and slapped my face. I told him I didn't want to play like that. Then he smacked the cup in my face as I was taking a drink and it spilled down me. I got out of the car and came to the trunk to get a blanket to use to dry off. I shut the trunk and went to the passenger side, open the door. And I told Jimmy I would come and see him another day when he felt better. I told him I was going home. He got mad and asked if I was kicking him out of my car. He grabbed the back of my head by my hair, spit in my face and punched me in the face. Still holding my hair. He took me over to the gravel rocks, pushed my chin to my chest locking my head there by continuing to hold my hair. As he pushed me down, face first into the gravel. I bit my tongue and had locked jaws but could not speak. I was pulled into an upright position and still holding my hair. He grabs my arm pulls me near the driveway, and I broke loose. I ran to the neighbor's house and almost knocked. I asked Jimmy if I could please just have my car and I would just leave. He told me to come closer. And if I didn't, it didn't matter because he could catch me in three steps. I came closer. He pulled me down on his lap in the passenger seat while holding my head down with one arm. He was using his other arm to fishhook my mouth separating my cheek from my gum line. I said ouch. You're hurting me. He said that will teach you not to scream. He said are you going to scream again. He let go of me and I made it to the street. He got out of the driver's seat and walked around the passenger seat to find his phone. I got closer to the car. As you were shutting the passenger door. I locked myself in and quickly left. He threw four cans of beer at my car and later sent me a text quote funny how Amber had a note on the door when you left just fucking jovial. Amber is his ex wife who filed a protective order against him in 2014. I went to the police station but wasn't sure I was at the right place and used that as an excuse to go think about everything that had just happened to me. While I was at the park, Officer Russ of Cleveland PD drove up and saw my face. He started asking questions. Russ asked me a few times if I would let him call an ambulance. I denied I went to the hospital for treatment the next day. Jimmy is in jail and should be treated by a psychiatrist and completely rehabilitated before release. He has a history of violence against women. I am afraid he will kill me for writing this. Christen mentions officer Rusty Shouse or officer Russ. He's the Cleveland PD officer who came upon her while she was sitting in the park bloody and in shock after being beaten by Jim rusty spoke to us about what he saw that night. what that experience was like for him because he actually knew both Jim and Christen from high school as well. Cleveland is that kind of a town.

 

Rusty Shouse  24:20

I was on patrol at night I saw a vehicle parked at the park and it was I don't remember what time of night it was. I know it was after dark saw a vehicle parked so I checked the vehicle and when I come up on the vehicle I recognized I recognized Christen and I knew who she was I knew her older brother. And I could tell that she had that she had been in some sort of an altercation and she was crying and I started asking her what was going on? Is she okay, does she need an ambulance? And she started explaining to me what was going on and as soon as she said yeah, it was Jimmy. I didn't I didn't have any clue because I I didn't I hadn't talked to Christine. Christine on a long time. I didn't know who she was dating but apparently you know, she had been dating Jimmy. And the crime occurred right there in front of his house, which was still inside city limits. I had a deputy Go with me to make the arrest on Jimmy, the deputy that went with me is now the Pawnee County Sheriff. So, Oh, interesting. Yeah, he shows they're Darren Varnell. He's a Pawnee County. He's the Pawnee County Sheriff. You he's the one that went with me to the house. Just you know, we're going to pick up somebody who's been violent. I did not want to go along just for procedural matters, but we went and arrested him and took him to Pawnee County and I didn't deal with him again after booking man I was saying was I did my paperwork. And I don't believe we ever had a court date on anything.

 

Colleen McCarty  25:55

One of Jim's survivors we're going to be hearing a lot more from is Karrah. Karrah data Jim for three weeks in October of 2014. Before she met Jim, Karrah was a piano teacher at a local music school. She has a child and at the time, she was caring for her mother who had late stage Alzheimer's. Prior to meeting Jim Kerr had never ever filed a police report before. And Leslie I actually know Karrah, because and that's how this story came to us because she taught me piano lessons. Oh, yeah. 2014.

 

Leslie Briggs  26:27

That's right. Do you want to tell the story of those piano lessons?

 

Colleen McCarty  26:31

No, that's embarrassing.

 

Leslie Briggs  26:32

It's really cute

 

Colleen McCarty  26:33

is it? I was learning one song on the piano. I don't play the piano. But I was learning one song on the piano to play for my husband on our 10th anniversary. And she helped me set up this whole thing. There's a grand piano inside the music school where she teaches and it's like inside of a little concert room and she got us champagne and like chocolate covered strawberries and like, filmed it from behind the door with like the door halfway cracked open. This

 

Leslie Briggs  27:00

feels like right up her alley.

 

Colleen McCarty  27:02

She loved it too. Like she loved the theatrics of it and she loved like helping us. Yeah, did and everything I know about Karrah is just that she's fierce, fierce and just very pure hearted. Yeah. Like her motives are always just for like, very greater good. Yes. It's it's always very like it's for justice, or it's for romance. Or it's like it's just very easy to boil down why she's doing what she's doing. And so, this is Karrah's account of what happened to her when she was dating Jim.

 

Karrah  27:41

Yes. And it was also my birthday. It was also my birthday weekend. And it was the worst birthday of my entire life to this day. And I'm really grateful that he didn't ruin my birthdays. I'm glad that I still look forward to my birthdays. And I have amazing birthdays. But it sure isn't because he didn't try. When I got to his house, you know, first of all, we had a little bit of argument about the underwear that was in his laundry basket as I walked in the door. So then he the deal was he was going to take me to Freddy's which Freddy's is actually a Lebanese Steakhouse in Sapulpa but and it's actually a nice steak house. I know it sounds crappy and we're going for it. He's no he we were going to Freddy's and for my birthday, and we did go to Freddy's wherebwe got back. And then he was really stressed about his custody case with Misty. And so he wanted to go for a drive around Boston pool road. And so we spent the rest of the night driving around Boston pool road. He was drinking heavily. I was not. We ended up in there a lot. I don't remember a lot of it. But I remember being in his bed. And he me and him. We got an argument about something. And I went and I got in his daughter's bed. And and I took because I wanted to be away from him. And that's when I fell asleep. And I woke up to him trying. Well, first he was putting pushing the back of my head under the pillow. And then he was trying to put his dick in my butt. And he couldn't because he couldn't keep it hard. So he started using this bottle this beer bottle that he had from his bedroom, and that's when he tore my butt and I started like crying. And he, I don't remember how long it lasted like, it wasn't even that long because I got on his nerves so bad. Like every, like I, he never did hurt me for that long. Because I just for some reason. I don't remember what it was what I the things I was saying to him or whatever, I was able to make him stop. And I got up and I remember I got I drove to my house, and I stood in the shower, and I took that shower. You know, I took the shower that you always see people having on on TV, the ones that you can't get clean enough, the ones that you stand in until the water is gone. And I remember standing in my shower and crying because that motherfucker raped me on my birthday. And I I'll and I'll never and I was like, I'm never going back. I mean, I obviously I was done with them. I was completely done with him. And I'm not going to be the kind of girl that goes back. Unfortunately, I can now empathize with why women do go back to their abusers. So on the third, the third weekend, we we drove around Boston Pool Road and he ended up stopped, we stopped he put a gun to my head. He put a gun to my head. He took a seat, my seat belt and put it around my neck. He put my head into my windshield and cracked my windshield with my head. And then I was done. Like I knew, I knew then I was done. Like there was no apologizing. There was no coming back from this there was I was not going to be that girl. I knew I knew that me and Jim Luman work were completed at that point. But he was still in my car and we were on Boston pool road. So I I just got really kind of cool for all of a sudden, and I was like, alright, we're leaving. And I started leaving and he tried to put my car in the ditch several times. I managed to drive to the main highway. He continued to try to he kept grabbing my wheel kept trying to make us wreck. I got to New Sapulpa road. He on the way there he told me he was going to put me in a field because my my my sister could track my phone like we had to find my friends or whatever. And he knew that and he said I'm going to put you in a field without your phone. And your sister's not going to be able to know where you are all weekend because I think it was like a Friday night. And it was like a long three day weekend too. And I and I remember saying you're not gonna do shit because I'm the one driving and he punched me as hard as he could, as I was driving 55 miles an hour going down the road. And then he proceeded to tell me how uncool I was. And I my smart ass said well, "I guess I'm pretty damn cool because you just punched me in the face and I kept my my car between two lines." And, and then he started to grab my he started to fish hook me he started to stick his thumb in my mouth and pulled my cheek until my lip was bleeding. And I knew it was bleeding because I could taste it and I could feel it coming down my mouth. I took him to his house where he got out of my car, he grabbed my keys, acted like he was going to throw my keys and I said So you're telling me you want me to go home. But you don't want me to know where my keys are? And I guess his ration I guess I questioned his rationing and he threw he barely tossed my keys. And so I went and grabbed them and got in my car and left. I was trying to get my glasses before I left, which is stupid, but I didn't get my glasses. And that was the last time I ever saw his face. I mean other than in a courtroom.

 

Colleen McCarty  34:34

I think for Karrah's experience what we're seeing and you'll see this some more is a pretty quick escalation to extreme violence after just meeting the person. You know, like he starts talking to on Facebook, they start messaging they go on this first trip to Branson, which we heard about in episodes four and five that were it was kind of like hallmarked with some really serious red flags, but nothing super violent happens on the trip to Branson and then the second time they see each other, it's like, anal rape.

 

Leslie Briggs  35:10

God. Yeah. Yeah, again, I'm just like, I'm left, like, speechless a little bit like what the fuck?

 

Colleen McCarty  35:21

I know.

 

Leslie Briggs  35:22

I just don't understand. I just don't understand the pathology. So Jim moves to Iowa to be with his kids. While there he meets our next survivor Heather on a dating site, plenty of fish. She was recently divorced from her husband of 20 years. She had two daughters at home and her life was going through a serious upheaval. The thing about Heather Colleen though, is that she's this incredibly independent and strong willed nurse.

 

Colleen McCarty  35:51

Yeah, she's a medical provider. Yeah, I mean, really smart really like quippy. And so you heard in episodes four and five, how Jim and Heather met and how they got married pretty quickly. Within four months in Hot Springs, Arkansas.

 

Leslie Briggs  36:06

They met on plenty of fish. And before we launch into Heather's story, Colleen, why don't you tell us a little bit about plenty of Fish's horrible, horrible history with abusers.

 

Colleen McCarty  36:19

Yeah, so I noticed Well, I I don't date or anything, because I'm married. But like, I've heard that plenty of fish has this horrible reputation for like, harassment and people getting dick pics and like, just women getting harassed every day, so and so yeah, that's every dating. I mean, like I don't know, firsthand, but I don't know, either. That's just what I hear from single people that I know. But I knew it was like bottom of the barrel. It's like there's match, which you pay a monthly fee for and you take a personality assessment, there's like eHarmony, which is like the Ferrari of dating sites, or you take this huge personality assessment. And so plenty of fish is free. What I didn't know until I looked it up is that actually, abuse, stalking and harassment are like literally rife on plenty of fish, and they know about it. They've like been called to the carpet on it before and decided just to not do anything, they don't do any background checks. They don't prevent sex offenders from joining the site. And it just creates like this cesspool of people who are genuinely out there looking for companionship in like a pool of, like, sorry, sorry to use more fish analogies, but like Shark Tank, yeah. I really do wonder like, is there some kind of cause of action here?

 

Leslie Briggs  37:42

My thing is, like, we looked into this, like super briefly, like I spent less than five minutes looking into this Colleen, maybe spent and, and they're all like, match, Tinder, plenty of fish. They're all owned by the same company, match group. And match. match.com was sued by this, this woman back in I can't remember what year it was. But she heard a lawsuit by being assaulted and abused by someone that she matched with on Match resulted in them like updating and taking all these steps to change their policies and like putting all these protections in place, you know, apparently did improve things on match.com. Why would the parent company not just do the same thing for the rest of the subsidiaries? All they're doing now I think, is an please reach out if you want to take this case, because I bet we could get you some clients. All they're doing now is like you have solid evidence that they are aware. They know it's a problem, a rampant

 

Colleen McCarty  38:43

problem. It's not just like a couple of people this has happened to it's like a lot of people this has happened to and people reporting it to their, you know, quick chat for help. And then just their accounts getting suspended. Not the people who were abusing or harassing the person reporting that harassment is getting suspended. Wow, I didn't I didn't see any of those articles. But yeah, yeah. And then we've got this one case where a woman, Mary Kay Beckman was set up with Wade Ridley, who was a murderer. Yeah. She sued them.

 

Leslie Briggs  39:22

This is the woman I think this is the Harvard educated match.com woman.

 

Colleen McCarty  39:26

Yeah, so for failing to disclose the dangers of online dating, like they didn't have a warning. So that's a weak fucking take, I think it's negligence.

 

Leslie Briggs  39:29

Look, all I'm saying is that they need to be doing these dating sites need to be doing more because somebody like Jim Luman who's been meeting people online since 1998. Back when it was still like a little bit taboo, knows how to game this system and has and has abused multiple women that we have spoken to who have met him on plenty of fish?

 

Colleen McCarty  40:02

It seems like it's not that hard to institute some type of basic background check. Like get your profile approved, you know, you apply for a profile and then you get it approved. If you don't have a criminal background, that's,

 

Leslie Briggs  40:16

I guarantee you the answer is capitalism.

 

Colleen McCarty  40:18

I'm sure it is like it's more expensive to pay for background checks. But it's also more expensive to get your ass sued off.

 

Leslie Briggs  40:26

If you want plaintiffs in the sounds like your bag, I bet we can hook you up.

 

Colleen McCarty  40:30

We got we gon' get you there.

 

Leslie Briggs  40:32

We'll get you there. Plenty of Fish, we got our sights set on you. Do Better you for you.

 

Colleen McCarty  40:38

If anybody wants to tweet that knock knocking on your door at the CEO have plenty of fish listener who's a woman right, who is a woman girlfriend, that she's perpetuating violence against women, we

 

Leslie Briggs  40:48

do not stand a woman who upholds the status quo. You got to do better girl. So Heather, and Jim met on plenty of fish. And they moved from dating to marriage within a few months. And as we noted that Heather had just gotten out of a 20 year relationship, and she was in a period of great upheaval in her life. But we'll let her tell you exactly what happened between her and Jim.

 

Heather  41:16

So even like he would go to Oklahoma for a week, and then he'd be in Iowa for a week and back and forth, back and forth. Well, I'm a very sexual human being, I always have been nothing new. So like when he was gone, I still had needs. I didn't need them satisfied by other people. But I wasn't even allowed to take care of things myself. And I was made to feel like, there's cameras in the apartment. Like, don't let me catch you doing that. I'll kick your ass. And he'd show me like pens that have cameras in them. So I never knew like I'm like, I can't do anything because I don't know when he's watching me. I mean, it was an extreme like. The douching was all the time, which of course through my bedroom floor off, which was terrible. I'm, like I said the grooming. I'm very particular and I like things a certain way. He wanted to do it, but he'd never do it. So he was just weir-- he's just some of the things he was into was so bizarre.

 

Colleen McCarty  42:24

What's the weirdest thing?

 

Heather  42:28

Um, two different things. Number one was wine enemas. I can't drink white wine to this day. I can't stand the smell of it. The he super anal fetishes. I'm putting milk in my rectum with a funnel and then having anal sex with me so he could watch it come out around his penis. This is where it gets kind of fuzzy for me. So I think we got married on a Tuesday. I know I got my first ass kicking on a Sunday. So Saturday. Okay, so when we came back my oldest daughter had told me that my youngest daughter had tried cocaine. Which I'm I'm pretty tight with my kids. And so I talked to her and we work through this. And I said, you know, I'm, I'm going to drug test you whenever I want. That's condition of this. And he wanted me to do that right away. He wanted me to take her phone away. He wanted all these things. Well, that's not how we parent our kids. It's just not That's not how we did it. He flipped shit. They ended up calling her dad. Her dad came on Sunday to pick her up and move her back with him. And I called Jim that morning I said, Hey, my ex is on the way. I'm scared. Um he's like, Okay, I'll be right there. He ended up coming just after Brian had left. And after my daughter is taken from my home to go live with her dad who's been my whole life her entire life. I got my ass kicked. He told me to strip down give me a stool, bent me over the bed and whipped me repeatedly with a belt and then finished and went out in the kitchen and may supper. It escalated to a dowel rod to this day. I hate fucking dowel rods. And that was part of that was all punishment. But what he liked to do he was to make me watch videos where like the woman would come in and perfect body, no bruises, no nothing. And she would get hit after hit after hit with dowel rods until she bruised in front of your eyes. That's what he would do to me from the back of my neck. If I would bend my legs up because he would hit my back. He'd smack the back bottom of my feet. That's where I had bruises my entire time I was married to him. And what he'll tell me is that well, that's so that other men won't touch you.

 

Leslie Briggs  45:12

Yeah, so there's this line between consensual, you know, you guys having a playful, sexual consensual relationship that he just kind of blazes past once you guys are married, right?

 

Heather  45:26

Oh, yeah, terribly, and he knew I hated it. There was one night he made me hold his beer while he beat me with it. Um, he used to do too toothpicks underneath the fingernails, um, battery clamps on the nipples, like nothing fun, he would hold me down and ram his dick down my throat until like threw up and then make me clean it up. There was like the beginning hot wax. And then you you know, kind of peel it off with a sharp knife. Well, then it became hot wax or something even hotter. And then it'd be a cut along the rib line or in everything just escalated, it started so innocent and so playfully fun, and different for me. And then it just went right past that. The day that I got beat up in October, my ex was there. He ended up pushing me up against a wall kind of got chest bumped me. Um, I took a pretty significant beating from Jim. That following week, I had to go to the mall on my way home when he questioned me about because I had to get extra makeup because I had bruises on my face. And I was a consultant so I had to not have bruises on my face. He told me that I needed to file a restraining order against my ex husband, and photograph all of the bruises about my arm and my face. And told me that I will go file charges and present those pictures so that they charge him with or not charge him, but I get a restraining order against him. Um, I didn't make it to the courthouse in time the first day because I had to go to Des Moines. Um, I'm at my ass beat for that. It was important and how could I not do it? So needless to say that I was granted a restraining order for that.

 

Colleen McCarty  47:38

So that's not still in place, though.

 

Heather  47:43

No, no, it's done.

 

Leslie Briggs  47:46

Ultimately, Jim uses the violence he perpetrated upon you as a basis for you to obtain a restraining order against your ex and he directs you to go and do that.

 

Heather  48:00

And I was beaten up because I missed the first filing date. So he had, he had this thing about me getting a tattoo and then before I got married, or before we got married, he decided that it would be super sexy, if I would get a brand with his initials, like a steak brand. You know what you'd normally do on a steak. Um, so he took it upon himself, he ordered it off the internet and he had it when I came down to Oklahoma. And he would light it up with a lighter. And the first one was an accident on the side of my arm. He lit it up, and then he touched me with it and it was enough to make it happen. And then he thought that was so cool. Like that was one of our wedding things. Um, he did one on the back of my neck on that Boston pool road. He simply reached across the car grabbed ahold of me, which I believe I think that was around that November assault in Tulsa and just burnt the back of my head with it. um the one on my shoulder. I can't remember what that one was for the one on my butt was punishment when I had left and went to my parents house and came back. But yeah, the neck, the arm and the in the neck, the shoulder and the butt were all punishment for something that I had done that he didn't like. He made it very clear to me how he would take care of things you know, like leaving you certain places or putting you in ponds or there was God the hiding like I'm terrified of the dark I've said that so he used to threaten to tie me to a tree and just leave me there until the animals would eat me or putting me out in some remote area. Um, we looked at purchasing two different houses. And when we would look at the houses he would point out Like, Oh, I could put you in this pond.

 

Leslie Briggs  50:02

And so ultimately you decide to get a firearm to protect yourself.

 

Heather  50:05

Yeah. The Ankenny officer. I had two huge patio doors in my apartment. And he told me that I should do extra security like putting something on the base so that he can open the door but he goes you know, bottom line if he wants you he's gonna get you you have a gas grill here with propane tank. If he wants you, he'll have you before and get back to you.

 

Leslie Briggs  50:28

That officer also kind of discouraged you from filing a protective order is that right?

 

Heather  50:35

Yeah, he told me it's just piece of paper. He's simply told me that it is just a piece of paper and there's nothing if he wants you like just like I said in order if he wants you he's gonna get you doesn't matter what you do. So then that put that put fear in my head because I'm like, wait a minute, this is law enforcement. Like you're supposed to be here to protect me and whenever I need you. And now he's telling me he can't I didn't tell this man no for anything. It got my ass beat. Or Or will he go? Will he hurt Lincoln? Will he hurt the dog? He would he traumatize that dog one day so bad that dog shit on my bedroom floor because he was terrified. That was one occurrence. Because Lincoln wanted to look at us while we were eating supper. The first time we ever had supper as a family in my apartment with his kids. The dog sat by the table and watched and he led that dog around the house and was just a complete asshole to him. A dog had never been hurt a day in its life.

 

Colleen McCarty  51:42

There's a couple of things about this story that are like so harrowing. I mean, just like I wake up in a cold sweat sometimes thinking about it. Partially it's the leaving her in a field that really bothers me because she she says like I am afraid of the dark. And it's just kind of sweet like I'm afraid of the dark and he knew that and he would just threaten to leave me out in the dark and field and watch animals eat my body like

 

Leslie Briggs  52:09

just turns my stomach.

 

Colleen McCarty  52:11

There's a lot of literature that shows that abusers often turn on the family animal. If they're abusing the people in the home they're also abusing the animals in the home and a lot of the reason why victims don't leave is because they're concerned for the animal if they leave the animal they're afraid they'll kill the animal so there is like this tie between domestic abuse and animal abuse that I don't think is explored as often as like maybe we should

 

52:39

say me

 

52:45

strange foolish people

 

52:57

dream

 

53:10

somebody.

 

Colleen McCarty  53:51

Marci is Jim's most recent ex wife and they met in 2019, because part of Jim's legal consulting business that we talked about in episode three works with chiropractors. And even though he was an Iowa, he still had chiropractors and legal cases that he was consulting on in Oklahoma. So one of the chiropractors who worked with Marcy actually worked in his office. And she was one of the people that worked, you know, work the phones and things like that. And so when Jim was calling all the time to work on cases, she would be the person to answer the phone and they just kind of started a relationship that way. And the interesting thing about how they met is that he let her think he was one of the attorneys.

 

Leslie Briggs  54:35

I think his method is more letting everybody assume, right,

 

Colleen McCarty  54:40

acting like an attorney and letting everybody assume, and she thought for sure that he was one until her boss the day she was driving away from Oklahoma to go visit him for the first time in Iowa. Her boss says you know he's not an attorney. Right? And it was like a little bit too late by that point. And she kind of thought it was strange. but she was still like into it and excited to go and meet him. So she didn't really push back on that very much. Marcy is from Yukon. And Yukon is a town in Oklahoma. And their relationship was mostly long distance during that first part, while they were getting to know each other, it was a lot of calling a lot of texting a lot of driving to Iowa, to go and see him.

 

Leslie Briggs  55:22

So as you heard in Episode Five, at this point in time, Jim was actually on the sex offender registry in Iowa. And that is part of the reason why Marcy was constantly having to drive up there to meet him, he couldn't come see her.

 

Colleen McCarty  55:37

So it wasn't very long after Marcy and Jim are together and she moves up there on Christmas, she kind of just decides impromptu not to come back to Oklahoma, even though her family and her whole support system are here. And then she starts getting mail at their house. And Jim doesn't like that her ex husband's name is on her mail. And that's essentially how he proposed to her as we're getting married now, because I don't like to see your ex husband's name.

 

Leslie Briggs  56:02

Yeah. And so they started dating in that September, and by the following July, they're married.

 

Colleen McCarty  56:08

That's right. We know these relationships move really fast. There's not a lot of time to question things. There's not a lot of time to talk to your family and see if they want to meet him if they want to have like, you know, a sit down with him. It's just kind of like, Let's go Hurry. Don't ask anybody about it.

 

Leslie Briggs  56:24

By the time Jim begins dating, Marcy, a lot has happened in his world as far as like, he's getting worse, at avoiding accountability in some ways. And I mean, Iowa really kind of steps up to try to hold him accountable. You still see the same patterns of pleading out for way less time than is warranted based on the facts.

 

Colleen McCarty  56:45

But like, comparatively, if you look at the deals that he got an Oklahoma and the court time that he got in Oklahoma versus the like accountability in the amount of time that he got in Iowa, you can definitely see a difference in the court systems. I mean, it's like they take it very seriously. They're taking him to court on multiple different cases, for multiple different offenses. And he's getting time some of them he is getting suspended sentences, like he was getting here. But it's like there are more charges being brought. There's more work being put in generally, yeah,

 

Leslie Briggs  57:15

you can just see that there's an effort being made. Yeah, like you threatening a violent act. I just didn't like that is a charge here. And you know, who gets charged with that shit known the homeless guy who is incompetent, and he's shouting at the at the liquor store clerk that he's going to shoot him because we're XY and Z. That's who gets charged with threatening a violent act and Oklahoma? We're not going to do that for Jim.

 

Colleen McCarty  57:36

Yeah. Or when he threatens people's kids, he's going to kill people's kids if they talk or like, no, none of that. We're not seeing any of that.

 

Leslie Briggs  57:43

So Iowa is at least trying. So I mean, some props to Iowa and I liked and the reason I bring that up, is that like, he's sort of just he's just like getting worse at this, or he's getting sloppier at this.

 

Colleen McCarty  57:56

And I mean, the fact is, it's been 25 years. What the fuck, right? Like, we're literally saying he's getting worse at this. No, it's like, we can't ignore it anymore. Yeah, 25 years worth of charges and filings and POS. And it's like, there's, it's just impossible to ignore at this point, at least for Iowa, for Iowa.

 

Leslie Briggs  58:19

But like I say that to also say that, like, Mercy gets fucking gaslighted from the beginning from the beginning. And it's gonna get it gets worse as the relationship goes on. And it culminates in the final, most ultimate gas lighting that we're gonna have to discuss a little bit.

 

Colleen McCarty  58:38

So without further ado, here's Marci's account of what happened to her during her darkest days with Jim.

 

Marci  58:45

We had gone to while I was driving there, he had gone to Walmart for supplies for the weekend.  Drinks and food and things like that. And we had got some rope and tied it up to the bed. And when I got there, I came through the doors and push me up against the wall and started kissing me. And next thing I know I'm tied up and he's basically raping me. I remember screaming asked I mean, begging him to stop and we would not stop.

 

Leslie Briggs  59:26

Did you guys discuss like after it was over? Did you discuss it at all?

 

Marci  59:34

Yeah, I told him that the reason I askied him to stop is cause I couldn't breathe and it scared me. He just kind of basically said Well, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I thought you were just playing the part.

 

Leslie Briggs  59:55

Had he discussed like a rape fantasy with you?

 

Marci  1:00:01

Oh, he had discussed fantasies of tying me up to a tree naked leavin' me. And me being a sex while being tied up to a tree, I actually have a picture. I have marks from head to toe. With a dowel rod all the way down nobody. I had been with his belt multiple times.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:00:31

Wow. Yeah.

 

Marci  1:00:32

Bad. Yeah, very, very bad.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:00:37

And that was that was part of his sexual pleasure that was for him.

 

Marci  1:00:40

Yeah, yeah. Everything was good when I first moved up, and then there was something that we had gotten a fight about. And I left in my car. And I told him, I was gonna go back to Oklahoma. We were on the phone with each other. And I was driving around. And he said that if I left him, or if I ever exposed him what is that he would kill me. My two sons and my mother he would have us killed. And then proceeded to talk me into coming back home. Totally changed up became this nice, sweet man. So I ended up going back to the house. And as soon as I walked in the door, he pushed me around the throat and shoved me up against the wall and strangled me until I passed out. And when I came to I remember, like, I could see in my head, I was rocking my youngest son. And when I woke up, I was actually rocking back and forth on the floor. And I asked him, I said, what happened? And he said, Get your ass up and get in the bedroom now. And when I went in there and proceeded to basically rape me again. So the night before we got married, he tackled me in a ditch and beat the crap out of me. If you look at our wedding pictures, the white of my eye is pure blood I have a bruise on my chin and a bruise on my chest.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:02:26

Tell me about that. So like let's back up. Let's actually like talk about When did he start talking about marriage with you? Like when? When did you bring that stuff up?

 

Marci  1:02:36

Shortly after I moved up there, because I was getting mail. And it was in my previous husband's last name, because that was my name. And he had a problem with that. And he was like, I can't do it anymore. I'm tired of seeing mail with this name. We need to have my last name. So we're getting married.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:03:00

what did you think?

 

Marci  1:03:03

How can I say no? What's gonna happen to me if I say no.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:03:07

and so what? Tell me we walked me through the night before you had mentioned that you guys he beat you. It was there was a bad night before. Can you walk me through what happened?

 

Marci  1:03:19

I had a bottle in my hands. And I want to throw it out the window and the window was up a little bit. And so the bottle hit the window. And I got backhanded. So I stopped the truck because he hit me in the eye. I stopped the truck and I got out. And I think I had just like started walking towards the bar ditch. And next thing I know who's gotten tackled in the ditch and telling me to get back in the truck after punching me and beating on me.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:04:09

you so you were driving? Yes. Were you guys just like because I know like, yeah, go ahead.

 

Marci  1:04:16

He was drinking. He was drinking so of course I was driving because we already had so many DUIs. So anytime he wanted to train, I was always the one that had to drive him around for it. He would make me drive him around all night all while he drank. And then I would have to get up the next morning and work and be there to answer the phones for work while he slept. So the night of the wedding, we're at this hotel room and I get a text from my son. And he said I just wanted to let you know I'm in the hospital. I had a motorcycle accident and I shattered my pelvis. So they're gonna do emergency surgery. So, of course, I'm getting texts from him all night with updates of what's going on. So I got in trouble with Jim saying that I ruined the honeymoon because I was more worried about my son. Which, of course, I was. Sure. That's my baby. You know? Yeah. So, the next weekend, I left and I came to Oklahoma for a week to be with my son. I mean, there was several times where he would backhanded me or there was a time that I was in the bathroom using the bathroom, and he came in and strangled me. And then, and I don't even know what that was about. I still don't know what that one was about. It was just bizarre. Like he wasn't himself, strangled me, and knocked my head into the wall. And then told me that if I got out of the bathtub, he would kill me. So I waited in a bathtub of cold water for two hours until I finally texted him. And I said, can I get out and he said, I don't care what you do. Shortly after that, he comes in there, and he's like, do ya want something to eat. like nothing ever happened. There was another time that I was sitting on the couch, and he came over and again strangled me. And when he did, my legs went up, or does the arm on the couch, and I accidentally kick the lamp over. And so you know, he would always go try to gouge my eye out with his thumb. So when he got done with that, I was on sitting on the floor at that time, and he took the lampshade and hit me over the head with it and bust my head open. And I'm just pouring blood. So he's like getting them back to stripped down. So I'm sitting in the bathtub, blood pouring down. And apparently, he took pictures of me and sent them to Amber of me naked, pouring blood from my head in the bathtub. Because Amber told me that that night, was the first time that he cried. He sat there and bawled. He tried to stitch my head up by himself with no anesthesia, because I wasn't allowed to go to the hospital because then he would be found out that he had beat me. So we decided that we were going to go out because we'd been married for six months. So it was a sort of anniversary celebration, I guess. And at that point, I was nine years sober and decided to drink that night so we went out back roading. And we went to the next town over to the liquor store. And he bought a huge bottle of some kind of banana, something or other. So we were both drinking beer and drinking the banana stuff. And he said that he wanted to, he asked me if I wanted to go to the bar or something. And I was like, yeah, we've never been to a bar together. Let's go. So we went to the bar. And I remember it was 10 something that night I remember going to the bathroom and I texted him from my watch. And I told him that I was trashed. He went out to the truck and got the banana stuff and took it out back behind the bar in the smoking area. So every time we'd go outside to smoke. We would drink more of it. There was another couple I don't know there was some more people that came over and joined up with us. And so me and a girl and then two guys, we were playing pool and Jim went off to shoot darts with some other girl. And I'm still trying I mean parts of it, I don't remember. And parts of it, I think because I've talked to Jim he had called me when I was in the hospital. And I think he put part of it in my head of what happened some, I mean, some of it's still very boring. And I'm still trying to make sense of it. But I guess he had come over and told me that the girl he was playing darts with was making him uncomfortable because she was telling him where she lived. And according to him hitting on him. So we were playing doubles, in pool. And it was me and that girl against Jim, and somebody else at this point, and the girl shot, and then the other guy shot, and then I shot and I ran the table. And I went up, and I was dancing in front of Jim. And I guess it embarrassed him. Because I had just run the table. And I was in front of him dancing. Like I guess he took that offensively. And so he was like get in the truck. And I went to the bathroom. And I guess he left. Like I said parts of it, I still don't remember. I remember walking down the road and realizing that my ring was gone. And then I remember walking back into the bar. And it was in the bathroom. I guess I had taken it off when I was washing my hands. I remember getting to the house. And I was just gonna go sit in my car, you know, to stay away from him. Basically, like I had done many times before where I go sleep in a part of a Walmart parking lot. I was just going to sit my car because I knew he was mad at my car, sleep in my car if I had to. And let him be. So I got out of the bartender's truck. And I remember walking into the car, not realizing that Jim was sitting in his truck right next to my car. And I remember him saying, What are you doing? And I said nothing. And then everything goes black.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:13:32

Do you remember when police or the ambulance arrived on the scene?

 

Marci  1:13:37

Do I remember? Well, so I don't remember going in the house. But I remember I laid down in the bedroom floor. And he was sitting on the couch and he yelled at me because I was bleeding on the carpet. Not that I was bleeding. Instead I was bleeding on his carpet. So I crawled to the office. And I guess I passed out again. I thought at that point that he had kicked me in the ribs. He says he didn't I don't know. But for some reason being kicked in the ribs stands out to me. I don't know if that actually happened or not. But he came over there and he said that I was gurgling on my blood and I quit bleeding. So he came over there and like sickening want me to and I remember getting up and going in the bathroom to pee. And when I saw myself in the mirror it scared the crap out of me because I was just covered in blood. So I remember locking the door which I was never allowed to shut the door when I was going to the bathroom. And definitely that was not allowed Unlock the door. So remember quietly locking in the door and calling 911 For my watch, because I wanted an ambulance, I wouldn't call them for police. I wasn't calling for help. I mean for for the police, I was calling for help for an ambulance. So they answered and I just said, Help, help. Because I knew I needed an ambulance, I had so much blood all over me. And then I remember going out of the bathroom, and I ran out the back door and snow was knee deep. So it wasn't going very fast. And he ran after me and tackled me in the snow. And I remember thinking, oh my god, I'm gonna die right now. And I looked up and saw the police lights coming up. And I knew I was safe,

 

Colleen McCarty  1:15:54

look, what you're seeing with Marcy is like, what I've been afraid of since we started recording the season. This is extreme escalation. Yeah.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:16:05

Yeah. And this is like, again, the crying while sewing her head shut with no, because she can't go to the hospital. You won't allow her to go to the hospital. You're not giving any. You're not numbing the area. I mean, like, I just can't imagine what that was like

 

Colleen McCarty  1:16:21

for Marcy. She's sitting there like having to feel like she needs to console him all her head. Yeah. sewn up. Yeah, right. Yes,

 

Leslie Briggs  1:16:27

exactly. That's exactly what's going on. He's crying and telling her he won't ever do it again. He's so sorry. Suddenly, the for the first time in that relationship. He's suddenly sorry. And her head is split open. And she's what she's supposed to be saying. I forgive you, like, I'll show that woman can do is the next, the only decision. And you can see how this plays out. The only decision that Marci can make in that moment is the decision that allows for survival. There is no other choice, whatever the decision is, it's the decision to survive. And like, that's all she can do. Yeah, that's all she can do.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:17:06

Yeah, and I think I'm seeing some parallels and like what people will be thinking or saying about Marci's story, like, especially when they hear about the fact that the second time to visit him, she goes to Osceola, and essentially gets raped the first night after she arrives like right then. And it's like you lived five states away nine hour drive, why are you getting raped driving back home and still involving yourself with this person? It's a very, like, Why did April go to Terry's house that night question. And again, it's like, she brought it up to him. She said, that hurt. I didn't like it. I kept telling you to stop. And he said, I thought you were just playing a part. And it like, minimized her experience to the point where she's like, well, I guess.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:17:49

Yeah. And I think also they had I mean, they were having look like in any long distance relationship, anybody's been a long distance relationship, will sex their partner, I don't know how else you stay connected, if you don't. Sure. And so it's like they're engaging. She describes it, you know, that, like they're engaging in these, these sex scenarios that are sort of escalating, and she sort of doesn't really know how to react to it. And, you know, she and I had a conversation about how oftentimes women I think I've been in a sexual scenario with a man where it's like, I guess I'm consenting. Because I don't actually know how to get out of this. And if I say no, now what how what's going to happen if I push you away from me? So I'm consenting and you know what I mean? And you can rationalize those things in your mind. Women do it every day. And

 

Colleen McCarty  1:18:42

this line between that we just do not discuss enough as a society this idea of like personal agency and consent is so is so ever present in these kinds of stories because it's like, Okay, I did consent a texting with you about slave fantasies. I did consent to texting with you about rape fantasies or whatever. Does that inherently mean I consented to be tied up to the bed and raped? It shouldn't

 

Leslie Briggs  1:19:11

know that's it the answer is that it doesn't. But we haven't as a society gotten to that place

 

Colleen McCarty  1:19:19

or the fact that like or like what Heather says, which is you know, I liked it when he was pouring hot wax on me and I liked it when he was like, you know, doing some subtle but some some slapping

 

Leslie Briggs  1:19:29

Yeah, like the pat the czar, Pat spanking some spanking.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:19:34

She call it swats swats? Yeah, the swats and like there's a whole subculture about, you know, tying people up and using you but there's also a whole subculture of people that know you need to use a safe word and it's like at some point you just like are like not cool with it anymore. Right? But you also have to be so in touch with yourself and your job and feel so safe with your partner and your ability to say like, it's over it crossed the line and I'm done. And to know that they're going to be cool with it, then like, this dude isn't going to be cool with it

 

Leslie Briggs  1:20:07

when we are not having enough conversations about consent. And I don't know, like, I guess I so I would say to the people who are raising those types of questions, it's like, I think that a lot of women can rationalize what is essentially a non consensual sex act being perpetrated upon them to Well, I didn't say no, it's the victim blaming. It is it is it's your classic victim blaming.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:20:33

It's like, I set this up, I packed the lingerie, I did the I sent those messages, I participated. So I have to be okay with whatever happens next. And if you don't press I know, I feel like a fucking broken record on this button. But like, if you don't process your trauma at all, and you're not a Healed person, and you get into an attachment with somebody who likes these types of scenarios, it is going to be very difficult for you to say no, and walk away because you're afraid that person is gonna abandon you. You're afraid that person is not gonna want to be with you. Yeah. And you're gonna be you're a people pleaser,

 

Leslie Briggs  1:21:08

right? It happens. And I think that, Jim, what's what we know about abusers, especially abusers, like Jim, or that they can pick that person out of a fucking crowd.  Like he could see a fucking like Live Aid concert that we're like,  That woman has trauma, and it's unresolved. And I can exploit that.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:21:27

I feel like he can tell from the initial messages with you. Yeah. Like hex in test, sorry. So

 

Leslie Briggs  1:21:34

this is the other thing that I think that Marcy really shined a light light on is that is this issue of, he's vulnerable. First. He will tell you a story that makes it seem like this man is willing to bear his soul to me. Why would I hold back

 

Colleen McCarty  1:21:52

heather talks about that, too. It's like this idea of like, he's this big, GRUMPY MAN WHO HAS to be mad at everybody. And Corton settling stuff all the time, like his gruff exterior. And he's just some good man in search of a good woman. And he's had sad things happen to him too. And like, and he's the first one to go there. Yeah. To let down the walls and like, Oh, you're seeing something that no one else sees. And

 

Leslie Briggs  1:22:14

it invites all these women to share their own trauma like a man. I mean, imagine I like, look, I have a wonderful relationship with my wife and like, we share a lot of things. I mean, most things with each other, and all of our vulnerabilities and it is a wonderful connection. And I love it. I love her. And to be in that spot thinking this is the guy that I'm going to share that connection with only to later find out he's going to manipulate gaslight and abuse you using that using oil you using what you share in those vulnerable moments.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:22:51

I don't What do you think's getting talked about on these fucking nine hour booze cruises? Leslie, like, we're not just like talking about Jason Isbell lyrics, where it's like we're talking about deep shit. Yeah, that's why he does that. Yeah,

 

Leslie Briggs  1:23:03

yes. You said that in an earlier episode. And I think you're exactly right. It's like this. It's like forced intimacy, forced

 

Colleen McCarty  1:23:09

fast intimacy. And it's not just for the purpose of feeling close with somebody, it's for the purposes of learning about you so he can figure out how to make you stay, how to put you in situations you can't get out of, and he won't say no to right. It's literally methodical. Yes. So I think many of our listeners are probably reeling right now, I'm

 

Leslie Briggs  1:23:28

a little worked up myself, right, I have a hard time listening to these stories, even after especially you Colleen you've had to mine them over and over again, in you know, I've listened to them multiple times as well. And it's just hard. And it doesn't get any easier.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:23:44

No, and it's just I think we talked about this at the top of this episode that like we focus as a society. And as, as people, our brains are so interested in the very odd and the very 1% of cases that are just just strange enough to make us think I want to learn more about that, or I want to look into that, or I want to solve that. And we don't pay any attention at all, to the violence that's happening right under our noses every day, every 20 people every minute. And maybe it's because it's too painful to look at that. Because it's too close to home. We've all had those kinds of things happen, or we know people that have or the people we love have, and it's just too painful. Yeah, but like, we have to start telling these stories. And we have to start looking at this because it's just

 

Leslie Briggs  1:24:34

Well, I mean, like, Okay, so the reason I think that we're saying here that violence against women and domestic violence is so insidious. It's because of that secrecy, that manipulation, that unwillingness to shed light, right, because of shame, fear, all of the things and so the person. And in this scenario, and in many other scenarios like this, the abuser, the person who's hurting us telling you it's just not that bad. you're overreacting, I didn't mean that. It's not gonna happen again. I mean, all of that is part of why these things take so long to come out, right?

 

Colleen McCarty  1:25:11

Yeah, and hearing the escalation of the violence from those early accounts you heard from Ember in episode one, and those were harrowing to Leslie like, I'm not downplaying what happened to ember. But to hear how it's gone from that to the extreme levels of sexual and physical violence that Jim committed against Heather in 2016, and then again on Marci 2020. It leaves me feeling terrified honestly, that the insufficient interventions from so many agencies has allowed him to continue to become more violent and more severe. And it also makes me wonder how many victims there truly are and how much we still have to uncover about the depths of Jim's violence.

 

Leslie Briggs  1:26:12

Next week on Panic Button, we'll discuss what happens when these survivors try to exert independence in those relationships. And what happens to them when they decide Enough is enough. Jim is particularly adept at two forms of abuse that aren't talked about much separation, abuse, and legal abuse. Because of his connections with lawyers, and to the legal field, Jim is smart enough about the court system to use it to his advantage. He does that in more ways than one.

 

Colleen McCarty  1:26:49

You can find links to pictures, documents, and all our sources in the show notes of this episode. These cases serve as a reminder of the devastating consequences of domestic violence and the importance of seeking help if you or someone you know, is a victim. If you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or your local emergency number. For confidential support and resources. You can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233. Thank you for listening to panic button Operation Wildfire, and for joining us in shedding light on the importance of ending domestic violence for good. I'm Colleen McCarty, and I'm Leslie Briggs. Panic Button is a production of Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice. were recorded at Bison and Bean studios in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Our theme music is by GYOM additional editing is provided by the Wave podcasting. Our music supervisor is Rusty rowe. Special thanks to our interns Kat and Alison to learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed or donate to keep our mission of fighting for the rights and opportunities of every Oklahoman reality. Go to okappleseed.org