S2|E5 Bloody Red Flags
Episode 5 of Panic Button brings us face to face with the red flags in Jim’s relationships. Bringing dates to a graveyard? Talking about leaving your fiancé in a field to get eaten by animals? Following fetish accounts on Instagram? Going through your girlfriend’s phone? These are just some of the red flags the survivors who have dated Jim saw waving as the walls of their abusive relationships began to close in on them.
Pictures and source documents available here.
These cases serve as a reminder of the devastating consequences of domestic violence and the importance of seeking help if you or someone you know is a victim.
If you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or your local emergency number.
For confidential support and resources you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233.
Support our work with a donation: https://okappleseed.kindful.com/
Learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed at www.okappleseed.org/
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse, use a safe computer and contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at www.thehotline.org or call 1-800-799-7233. You can also search for a local domestic violence shelter at www.domesticshelters.org/.
If you have experienced sexual assault and need support, visit the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN) at www.rainn.org or call 1-800-656-HOPE.
Have questions about consent? Take a look at this guide from RAINN at www.rainn.org/articles/what-is-consent.
Follow the OKAppleseed on Instagram at @OKAppleseed and on facebook at facebook.org/okappleseedcenter.
The song featured in this episode is Street Light by Branjae.
Speakers:
Karrah, Tisha, Colleen McCarty, Jim Luman, Leslie Briggs, Kimber, Marci, Branjae, Operator, Christen, Heather
Transcript:
Leslie Briggs 00:00
This episode contains graphic accounts of domestic and sexual violence, violence against women in particular, and language that is not suitable for listeners under 18 years of age. We also discussed coercive control. So please use caution when listening.
Tisha 00:16
And you know, we sat and talked, you know, everything was good. And yeah, something in his little brain flipped after we left that's because we were already back to my house. You know, he was dropped me off. And yeah, it something triggered, and he showed up, bit me on my bit me on my cheek completely out of nowhere. I mean, when I say it's like you flip on a light switch. That's exactly what it what it is, you know, and I don't I really don't remember what happened other than we were talking. And the next thing I knew, I thought he was grabbing me to kiss me. And he grabbed me and said, my face, I have never had anyone like, nibble my face. This was straight up, I had teeth marks and a bruise, somebody was like, You need to call the cops. And I'm like, what for? What are they gonna do? Oh, you went out with this guy, one time and he bit you. Don't go out with him again.
Kimber 01:11
So when you start seeing red flags, acknowledge them and let it go before you really get hurt. It's too good to be true. It probably is too good to be true.
Leslie Briggs 01:24
Have you ever been in a relationship that seemed to be going so well? And then out of the blue? Your partner says or does something that goes up like flare in your mind? Was that a red flag? Does that mean I need to leave? Is that the last straw? Maybe it's just a bad day. When you are in relationship with an abusive person. The red flags come in many forms and those behaviors are deployed for different purposes. There are a million books and research papers on abuse and why people are abusive. The most recent research confirms that abuse is about control. And there are a lot of different tactics to get control over someone. Some of these tactics are minor and almost undetectable. Others are violent and scary.
Colleen McCarty 02:11
On last week's episode, we showed you what it was like to fall in love with Jim lumen. This week, we show you what happens when that love turns toxic. This is panic button, Operation Wildfire, and you're listening to Episode Five bloody red flags. I'm Colleen McCarty.
Leslie Briggs 02:32
And I'm Leslie Briggs.
Colleen McCarty 02:34
If you're just getting started with us, we recommend you go back and start listening from episode one. For ease of listening, and also for anyone listening who might be living with these behaviors at home and who hasn't been able to put words to your experience. We've categorized the types of red flags in this episode by the types of behavior Jim exhibits with his victims. The types of red flags are low empathy, dishonesty, coercive control, sexual violence and physical violence. We'll start with low empathy red flags. Typically people like Jim who are chronic abusers have very low empathy for other people. Empathy is defined as the ability to understand and share the feelings of someone else. Having low empathy is not necessarily against the law, and it isn't a basis for saying someone was abusive. However, it is an indication that someone might be abusive or can be used to explain abuse after the fact.
Marci 03:34
And I can tell you know, he kind of disconnected from me a little bit. I figured he's probably texting Amber again, or whoever else. And he tells me it's just best that he goes or whatever, and I was like, okay, all right. You know, we have and he got all of his things. And I felt like he had Amber come and get him. Now, he stole my truck. Yeah, he just took off in my truck. And so I call he doesn't answer think I tags. And, you know, he like, tells me like, doesn't care Fuck off, or whatever He tells me, you know, and I like have a pretty good idea of like where he is. And so I called the police and the police told me since I know the person who has the vehicle, but it's not stolen but there's nothing I can do criminally that it would be a civil issue. So I decided I would go get my truck. And I took my pistol my daughter, and we went to the trailer park over at Amber's and the keys were in it. And he was asleep inside I guess or whatever. So without incident, I took my truck back.
Leslie Briggs 04:51
He's married to Amber the whole time you guys are seeing one another.
Marci 04:56
I just remember when I met him at Torchy's It was for like a divorce party, but I think it was his divorce from Misty. If the timeline matches up, and then he tells me like we're dating, and he tells me that he's got to be with Amber because, you know, it's divorce and it makes it look better that he has someone instead of being alone, and yeah, he, he tells me that's why he's marrying her, whatever. But he, and the whole time, you know, she's aware that I'm in the picture too. He tells her that we're just friends.
Karrah 05:37
And then I noticed, I remember seeing her headstone and thinking it and I remember it sticking out because he said she was a crazy bitch. And, and I remember thinking, well, he's already said Amber was a crazy bitch. He said, Misty was a crazy bitch. So that's weird. You know? Why is he calling his dead sister a crazy bitch. And I just I remember the back of her headstone. It was pretty much like, "sorry, I was so crazy." I mean, I don't remember exactly the words that said it was something something poetic, but it was pretty much I felt like it was just sealing the deal that she was crazy. For some reason, like, I don't know. Anyway, so he took me to her house that she used to live in, where his brother in law and his neices still lived. They were not home. So we went in by ourself where he told me to play her piano. And you, I was like, it's kind of weird. He's like, No, sit down. Just play her piano for me. I was like, okay, so I sit down and I played November rain by Guns and Roses. And he stared at me the whole time. And then we went to Boston Pool Road, again, went around a few more times, and it was getting dark. And I was really sad because I wanted to make catch my mom's bed time. Because you know, she had a bed time. She was on hospice at that time. And he was really weird about like, controlling my time, he wouldn't he wouldn't stop. He wanted to go around one more time. One more time. And I'm like, but I want to see my mom. And sure enough, when we got to my mom's my mom was asleep in her bed in the living room. And Jim Luman walked up to my mom, it was laying there asleep and kissed her forehead.
Leslie Briggs 07:32
The next group of stories illustrates the gym is generally dishonest. Some of these have to do with infidelity or cheating. Now, we know that there are folks out there who might be in an open relationship or a non monogamous relationship. And that's not what we're talking about with this. What we're talking about is the way in which Jim will pit women against one another, or use other relationships to make someone jealous. It's a classic abusive tactic,
Karrah 07:57
the first conversation I ever had with his girlfriend, Christen. I had been on a first date with him. And we got back from our first date. And his girlfriend at the time, which I did not know he she existed. I just found out that he had a girlfriend. Well, she was saying that she was his girlfriend, and she was asking me about my pumpkins. And she said, Well, my boyfriend Jimmy likes your pumpkins. And I was like, he's my boyfriend, late and lady. And she's like, Well, I'm gonna block you. And then we stopped being friends for a while.
Colleen McCarty 08:34
Sometimes the dishonesty can be about something small, like lying about where you got your couch.
Heather 08:38
There was a lot of little like, fights trying to make me jealous with certain things. And it was it was interesting to me, because when I first went to his place, I didn't think anything of it, but he would make comments like, on the couch that was in his living room. He's like, Well, that was here when I moved in and they couldn't move it out. That's why I have that couch. Um, his bed was an air mattress didn't have a real bit like he had no real possessions. The first time I ever went up to his apartment and met the kids I went up to help him set up a bunk bed for the kids, which come to find out. Shannon summers from Oklahoma, had driven up and bought with him, and then ended up driving home. It's so twisted and tumultuous,
Colleen McCarty 09:26
or lying about creating something that you clearly didn't create.
Karrah 09:31
I found out later on, he was taking pictures of my pumpkins and telling women that he was carving them.
Colleen McCarty 09:40
Sometimes lying could seem like it's supposed to be a joke.
Marci 09:44
So Leroy called me to tell me and oh my God is with me like I don't know why like all of a sudden I'm just so mad but there's one more girl in the picture I guess. I can my car and driving right Over. And by this time she's gone. Jim's passed out upstairs and the door's unlocked. I don't bother knocking. I'm like in some kind of autopilot craziness. And I go straight upstairs and there's a dildo on the floor that I stepped over. And what I'm there for is a T shirt that is a blouse that I had hung in his closet. And if that blouse was not going to hang in that closet, while another girl's and that was like, all that matters me is I needed that blouse. So I go up the stairs. And step over is still though and he opens his eyes about this time to see me in his room. And he's like, what, what are you doing? I said, Nice dildo, and I grabbed my shirt. And he was like, hell, what did he say? Could have been using that on Leroy are counting like, because he knew then that I knew he had a girl over so he's trying to say it was like him and Leroy
Colleen McCarty 11:02
then there's big lying, like creating fake people online. Remember Vikki Brochan? Jim's personal assistant from the last episode.
Karrah 11:13
Vicki Brochan Well, she's no longer with us. We she's dead now. Vikki Brochan is actually does not exist and never did exist. She was a he had a picture of a mail order Russian bride that he used as her profile picture. He had maybe one or two other pictures of her that he used and he she had a LinkedIn page with 1000s of followers. And I'm talking on Vicki's birthday. She would get so many birthday greetings from all these men. And she just be like, Thank you. Thank you. And turns out Viki Brochan is Jim Luman. Viki Brochan was Jim Luman posing to be a woman to make other women jealous of his beautiful assistant. Jim, he used her to triangulate to he had on her Facebook page. There's proof of well, it's not proof ish. She's got post. Well, she sorry. I don't know. Vicki has post of Jim taking her flying on his plane. She has posted of the of the Corvette that he bought her. She has posted of the little teacup chihuahua that he bought her you know, because he loves me. And so I'm sure Amber was seeing those and being really jealous because he didn't buy her a dog or a Corvette or an airplane. Anyway, Vicki Brochan was Jim Luman.
Leslie Briggs 12:59
How did you guys find out that it was him?
Karrah 13:04
I found I found out it was him. Because I learned it was Google started to allow that feature where you could search for images. So I searched for the Russian mail order bride photo that he had as his profile picture. It came up as Martina something but then he had another LinkedIn page after Vikki died. That was something Victoria Smithson. And he also used the same picture of Vikki Brochan from use those same pictures as well. And so LinkedIn kind of took both of those down for us, because you guys reached out to LinkedIn and said, We did reach out to LinkedIn. And I actually I had a couple of friends that were reaching out to him and saying, Hey, this is kind of confusing. This girl looks like this girl, you know, just to kind of jab him a bit. One of my piano movers would always would always do his kind of kind of jab a little bit.
Colleen McCarty 14:23
Other big line examples are saying you have a certification for professional occupation.
Leslie Briggs 14:30
Yeah, so did he actually say to you, I am a licensed attorney.
Heather 14:34
What? Okay, I don't know if he ever said those words to me. But I will tell you that he never corrected me. He at one point when we very first started talking, we were supposed to spend the weekend together and he had to cancel he had to go back to Oklahoma. And the reason he gave me was because his niece had been picked up for fighting. And he had to go defend her and get her out of jail. No, when he was on the phone talking to clients. There was one instance in particular when we were in Omaha. And he was laying on the bed naked and talking to a client. And I got off of he got off the phone. And I said, I wonder if she has any idea that her lawyer is laying on the bed naked and talking to her. And he just giggled. So I don't know that he ever came out and said it. I know his plenty of fish profile used to say that his job was legal, but I was never corrected. I was never told no, no, I'm just just this or just that. He told me multiple times he doesn't he didn't take the Iowa bar. And what the rationale for that was.
Colleen McCarty 15:50
For the record, Jim is not an attorney has never been an attorney has never been to law school and has never taken a bar exam anywhere that we could find. He is not certified to practice law in any state,
Leslie Briggs 16:01
but just want to chime in and say that Bar Association's in the states where he's operating should care about the things that he's doing. Because we don't in Oklahoma, we may have paralegals, but we actually don't have a requirement for a certification for a paralegal, you can go and you can get like an Associate's and that can like help you get a job. But we don't have anybody overseeing those people other than the lawyers. And that leaves open this unregulated territory for someone like Jim to call himself a, quote, legal consultant, and do whatever it is that he's doing in the personal injury game. You know, when I tried to call him recently to get his interview and his version of these events, this is what his voicemail says.
Jim Luman 16:44
I'm not able to get the phone right now, I'm either with clients. On the other line, or possibly in court, if you will, please leave your name, number and a message and I'll return your call as soon as possible.
Operator 16:59
At the tone, please record your message. When you finished recording, you may hang up or press one for more options.
Leslie Briggs 17:06
Hi, Jim, it's Leslie over at Oklahoma Appleseed. I was just trying to give you a follow up to see if you had you wanted to still kind of give us your side of the story. You can call me back anytime today. And I'll be this is my direct line. So you can catch me here. Thank you. So I just want to say I think that Bar Associations should care about regulating the non lawyer legal space, and take steps to ensure that people who are engaging in Paralegal type activities or quote legal consulting type activities, either have some kind of like, certification requirement or an oversight requirement that can be tracked and controlled by the bar.
Colleen McCarty 17:51
Yes, because like this, like we found, as we researched all this, this is sort of falls into a gray space like he's, it's he could easily say he's not doing unauthorized practice of law. And I don't think other attorneys or judges or people affiliated with the Oklahoma bar, or the Iowa bar would be comfortable with the gray space that this person is operating in, especially when they let people believe that they are a practicing attorney and don't correct that. Even more big lies would have to do with money.
Heather 18:24
I was I was cashing the checks. Like I was working the cases with him. I watched him on the phone with insurance companies like I had no reason to think he wasn't, we were pulling in 30 grand a month. So I'm like, why would I even question that?
Colleen McCarty 18:43
Or whether or not you have a criminal history, that he
Marci 18:47
had explained it away and the son had explained it away. My understanding, and he'd even show me a court document that he had told his ex wife Heather to go fuck yourself, because of the word fuck that put it into the sex registry offense.
Leslie Briggs 19:08
And you spoke to his son about that as well.
Marci 19:11
But I believe he told me that it was because he had said that to Heather.
Leslie Briggs 19:18
How did like how did he get involved? Tell me about that conversation? Like why did he tell you like, Hey, I'm gonna have my son vouch for me like you can talk to him about it or like, how did that come about?
Marci 19:27
I really don't remember if I had brought it up. probably me saying something. But you know, like I said, he would show me a court document that stated that's what it was. So I was like, Okay, well, I can overlook that. Because who doesn't say that?
Colleen McCarty 19:44
Or even how many people the abuser is seeing at once.
Heather 19:51
But if you think about it, he's always probably got three of us he talks about the triangulation. So these are telling me all the time I got a girl in Oklahoma, you're my Iowa girl. Don't worry about it. There'll be almost You're a girl, you know, don't worry about it. Well, in my instance, there was me there was Sarah, and Amber still in the picture, all Amber's always in the picture
Leslie Briggs 20:10
Well look, unless there are criminal implications to the lies lying in and of itself isn't usually a crime. It's another indicator that you might be dealing with someone who is abusive. The next group of stories shows coercive control. Coercive control refers to a pattern of controlling behaviors that create an unequal power dynamic in a relationship. These behaviors give the perpetrator power over their partner making it difficult for them to leave.
Colleen McCarty 20:38
So I think it's worth mentioning here that there's actually a recent movement in the United States to codify coercive control. And three states explicitly haven't statute actually, Oklahoma is one of the three states that has coercive control codified but we only have it codified in the family law code, which means it can be used against someone in a family law case like divorce or custody case. But it's not a criminal definition, of course of control. But there are 10 states that have a statute that mimics something that's very close to criminal to coercive control. So it's interesting because it's hard to define what coercive control is, but a lot of domestic violence and sexual assault groups across the country are working to make this actually a criminal offense.
Leslie Briggs 21:28
It's interesting. What if What can I do the devil's advocate thing? Yeah, but because it's like, course of control. I mean, we know that it's like this accumulation of behaviors that results in like the inability to act independent of your partner, or free like, you know, essentially robbing you of your free will. But like, at what point do you reach the critical mass? You know, I like like, I want my wife to, like, do the laundry. And so as I was having an argument, and her deciding to do the laundry, is that me? coercively controlling her?
Colleen McCarty 22:10
Well, let me just read to you how we describe it in Oklahoma. It is coercive control, involving physical, sexual, psychological, emotional, economic, or financial abuse. So it has to meet one of those other abuses. And you're using that abuse or the threat of the abuse to control the person. Yeah, it's kind of a slippery slope. If you ask me. I think
Leslie Briggs 22:39
it could be, I think it could be, because like, what behaviors? It's almost like, pornography, you know, you know it when you see it? Yeah. It's difficult to define. Yeah.
Colleen McCarty 22:50
And the thing about coercive control is it's really like, an environment or a culture inside of a relationship. And it would take a lot of evidence to produce to show a culture or an environment exists. Yeah. That's tricky. You can't just show one act of what someone would call coercive control and say that you were being coercively controlled. I think it takes more than that.
Leslie Briggs 23:19
This is again, why the more that we look at these issues, and the more we like, come up with what we think are good policy, looking at other states and all of that I keep coming back to this idea that like courts, and in particular, criminal courts, and I guess family courts, too, are not the... I mean, they are a last resort for solving these problems, we have got to find a better way as a society to intervene sooner. I think it starts with the police because they're the first responders to calls. I don't know what that looks like, but like intervening before we get to the point of like, we're expecting a criminal court, or a family court to rule on custody or to put someone away in jail to solve this problem. Because it's like, we need to intervene when you are coercively controlling somebody about the fucking laundry or the dishes or not getting your dinner on time. Before you are punching them in the face. You know what I mean?
Colleen McCarty 24:17
Yeah, but then like I don't know. It's so hard. Like what even is the intervention that we're asking people to do is just like, separate you?
Leslie Briggs 24:31
Yeah, no, I mean, toxic masculinity. strikes again, like, stop being a toxically masculine person who can only is only emotion is anger.
Colleen McCarty 24:45
Yeah, I mean, that goes to such deep roots of like, how we raise boys and how we don't want boys to have feelings. Yeah. So many things
Leslie Briggs 24:54
that I'm not qualified to comment on. Frankly,
Colleen McCarty 24:57
honestly, truly, we're gonna have an expert's episode this season. And that's going to be really good. And I think some of those folks have ideas about this
Leslie Briggs 25:04
samesies, okay. Coercive of control can be seemingly small.
Marci 25:11
That was, I mean, one problem that we had was all the time that we wanted to go. So when we put some makeup on, and he got mad at the wanting to put makeup on, and he ended up moving without me and got kinda of crappy.
Karrah 25:31
And so he said, Go milk that cow. And I was like, No, I'm not gonna go milk that cow. And he took my phone from me. And he said, Go milk the cow. And so like, you know, I grew up with a big sister, and like, cousins that teased me. So I it was making me laugh. And I didn't I don't mind people teasing me. And he looking back, he was, there was the first time he took my phone from me and I, and I was forced to do something to get my phone back kind of thing. And that happened later on. But it was a lot more serious.
Marci 26:10
I can remember one time when we're going out of town, and I said, I need to stop at Walgreens and get some makeup because I'm running low. And I didn't grab it before I came to get you. So we'll just stop. And he's like, you don't even make it. We're not stopping. I laughed, like I didn't understand, you know. So it just,
Heather 26:29
it was constant. Just mind games, mind games, not allowed to talk to my family, he would tell me if I could go out and have a cigarette or not. One night, the kids were there, we were playing this game where you take something off the fridge and you eat a spoonful of it. And it escalated to him wanting me to go out and put my tongue on the grill because it was sub zero so that the girls could see what what happened when he did that. And then when he got pissed at me, because I wouldn't do it. Then that became a big deal after the kids went to bed. They're just constant fights it's constant. And I wouldn't say word and I shut my mouth.
Leslie Briggs 27:12
What are can you help us? What are some of these you would say? Like taking that the grill example? Like, how does he turn that into a fight? You know what I mean? Like, can you tell me what he's saying? Are you remembers that something may be that your brain is blocked out? I could understand if so. But yeah,
Heather 27:31
I remember that clear as day because that happened. And I was in tears standing in the kitchen at the sink. And he walked up behind me and got as close as he could, like a sandwich grabbed a hold of me by the hips, put his fucking mouth in my ear. And he says, I don't know why you have to be such a fucking cunt all the time.
Leslie Briggs 27:49
This type of control can be used to make you leave places or interrupt plans. He was
Karrah 27:55
actually going through my phone. And I didn't know he was going through my phone. And he was using his phone to go through my Facebook. And I had an April Fool's post from years ago with my my friend Troy, who was a gay man that worked at Saeid music with me. And we, we pretended like we went to Vegas and got married. And we clearly didn't get married. He's a gay man. I'm a straight woman. And Jim found this out in it. It got his retroactive jealousy, enraged, which he said. He got on this long spiel about how he's got serious issues with retroactive jealousy. And we ended up leaving Branson because he was mad about Troy, my ex husband that I was never married to. And but on our way home, we were going to see we were going to go our separate ways the date was going to be over. He decided on the way home he started apologizing. That's when he started explaining his retroactive jealousy. And now this is a couple hour drive home. It's not like we're we've got a 15 minute drive. So he's starts telling me like why he has all these jealous feelings. Because Amber was a cheater. And in you know, he's got these reasons and he's got tears coming. And it's breaking my heart. And he's like, I've got to stop drinking. I can't drink anymore. And I'm like, Yeah, you probably should stop drinking, and clearly makes you angry.
Leslie Briggs 29:42
Very often in these relationships. coercive control is used to cut people off from their existing family and friends.
Marci 29:49
If I didn't do something that we wanted me to do, and he would whip me with a belt, like I was a child would ground me from my phone would take watch away so that I couldn't call anybody.
Heather 30:05
And it would get to the point where he would just start really getting on me about, you know, every family member. Well, this is why she's better. This is why he's bad. I'm the one time that really brings out in my head was sitting on the couch next to my mom, my stepmom called, we talked all the time. And he literally got mad because I was talking to her and told me to get off the damn phone, I didn't need to be talking to her. So it was like, things just kind of, I don't know, they just escalated.
Leslie Briggs 30:34
Another frequent coercive of control tactic is to tamper with birth control, or prevent a partner from purchasing or receiving birth control, newly divorced so I
Heather 30:43
went on depo provera, to make sure nothing happened. Well, I ended up with a bunch of irregular bleeding with that. And he didn't want me to continue to get the shot. He wanted me to get pregnant. And I said absolutely not, I will not do that. So I would have to go to my doctor's appointment and get my shots behind his back, which ultimately got me beat up sometimes.
Leslie Briggs 31:03
And something not discussed widely is course of control as it applies to the sexual relationship.
Heather 31:09
So my wedding present, he had sex with me, vaginal intercourse.
Leslie Briggs 31:13
Finally, a common mood of coercive control is looking through a partner cell phone or through their email.
Heather 31:20
Friday night, he stayed up all night working files for his clients. He wanted my phone so he could do two different phones, what kind of find out he wanted my phone to look through it. So when I wake up Friday, he's pissed at me because he found a text message that I sent to one of my friends in August, about the guy who was actually seeing when I met him stating that I had taken him home from the fair. And then it took me so long to come back because I wanted to get a little D, he ended up throwing the phone at me threw his ring at me shove my face in the door and left, I'm gonna find out he's spent that night with Tisha which is another ex from up in Hubbard.
Colleen McCarty 32:02
So the next group of behaviors that we're going to be talking about is sexual violence. I think if you are easily triggered, or you've been through some stuff might be in your best interest, just skip forward through the episode. But sexual violence is incredibly prevalent in abusive relationships and frequently underreported. After all, spousal rape was actually illegal in Oklahoma until the late 1990s.
Leslie Briggs 32:28
That's fucked up
Colleen McCarty 32:29
Fo sho. It can frequently start with pushing obvious boundaries or not taking no for an answer.
Marci 32:37
It was very much into the dom/sub culture.
Leslie Briggs 32:45
Sorry, the what side culture?
Marci 32:48
the DOM/Sum
Leslie Briggs 32:55
and it, Marcy, at any point, when you're not, if you're not comfortable talking to me about anything, you just say, like, Well, I'm not gonna talk about that. So like that you have free rein to tell me, you're not going to answer any of my questions. Okay. But had you ever experienced anything like that before? Like with any of your other sexual partners?
Marci 33:12
No. Absolutely not.
Leslie Briggs 33:16
Were you worried about it nervous about it excited about something new.
Marci 33:28
I don't really have an opinion. But I definitely did not expect to be as violent as it was.
Karrah 33:39
He was over on his bed, and I was over on my bed. And I was like, I'm going to pass out and go to sleep. Because tomorrow we get to go to Silver Dollar City, and I'm excited. And he comes over to my bed. And I'm like, No, and I had like, all my clothes on to like, all my clothes on. And he's like, and I wanted to add pajama bottoms on. So I mean, in like, ugly ones, too. Like I was I was be, I was like, careful not to like, make him think I was trying to look sexy. You know what I mean? Like I had, like, gross looking like, polar bear pajamas on and he ended up like, kept putting his hands in my pajamas. And I was like, No. And finally, I just stopped saying no, and I ended up I ended up having sex with him. And I like don't remember it very much.
Colleen McCarty 34:32
Sometimes the sexual violence starts out being consensual.
Heather 34:36
There was a lot of at the time, I would have called it like s&m type sexual things going on between us that were very risky and probably not what most you know, moms do sitting around the house think about but kind of like a 50 Shades of Grey. Now. I've never seen the movie because I can't bring myself to watch it. So at the beginning there was a lot of more risky sexual stuff going on. And I didn't have a problem with that. But then it
Colleen McCarty 35:06
escalates to controlling someone's body shaming someone's body or threatening physical punishment for certain things.
Heather 35:14
He really this is so embarrassing. Um, he he'd made it a point to tell me like if there was an odor, or if things weren't as fresh as could be. He himself would doche me. Use all kinds of different things. And then it got to the point where he told me that I wasn't tight enough. And I needed to use this certain thing. So he douche me with that. And like stuff like that were, you know, at first, he couldn't get enough. And then suddenly, he's like, Oh, God, that's gross . It's nasty. I can't do that. I remember one time, he pushed me away. And he's like, yuck, you need to fix that. But if I tried to fix anything, myself, he would get mad. Wouldn't let me do any self grooming, that was his job. He wanted to do it, but he wouldn't deal with it.
Leslie Briggs 36:15
We're gonna go through some very public Instagram information that we find unusual. And we're doing that not to kink shame, because everybody has kinks. But in the larger context of what Jim has done to these women, it's just like, it's unabashed. It is what it is. It's also it's like just very public. It's also indicative of someone who just like lacks scruples, a little bit like it's, he's, he's posting about his business, he's bragging about his business. There are attorneys and law firms that are following him and liking his posts. And then he's very publicly following these, like exotic leg accounts, right?
Colleen McCarty 36:53
I mean, I think if like I was trying to convince the world that I was not womanizer and abuser, that I maybe would not publicly show everybody that I have leg fetishes and muscular woman fetishes, and that I clearly objectify women on my social media. It's that whole thing about I lay in bed and do naked and do million dollar business deals like I do. I come on the phone with somebody, I make a settlement. They pay me 100 grand, and then I go look at muscley woman legs.
Leslie Briggs 37:32
Yeah, I post that. And then I get to scroll for legs.
Colleen McCarty 37:36
I don't know. I don't know if it's shaming, Leslie. It feels like we're shaming but like, deservedly.
Leslie Briggs 37:43
Yeah, I guess. I think it also just highlights some of like, I would be hard pressed to find a professional woman out in the world, who would just like have her her kinks on full display on her on an account where she's doing her business?
Colleen McCarty 38:06
Well, not only that, but like women have been fired from jobs and like, been publicly shamed. It's a double standard, because of sexual activity that became public,
Leslie Briggs 38:18
right? It's fully a double standard. And it's like, again, I think it just highlights how unabashedly, he is about the things that he engages in, and no one will tell him otherwise.
Colleen McCarty 38:30
He does what he wants.
Leslie Briggs 38:31
everybody's still doing business with him. It doesn't like stop, it doesn't stop. Nobody looks at that and goes, hmm.
Colleen McCarty 38:40
I mean, can you draw a line to, like, from leg fetish accounts? To the horrific abuse he's done? No. But when you look at it in the larger context of like, everything we know about him, and everything that we've seen, and all the pictures of the abused women that we've seen, it just adds an extra layer of validity to what they're saying. Yeah. It's like he's not ashamed. He's doing very public gross things. He's, he's not trying to hide it.
Leslie Briggs 39:19
And they're just like, there's just like, No, there is no societal pressure on him to hide it. Like there is no one saying, Look, man, maybe don't follow the leg account while you're posting about our business. You know, it's like, I just did like a woman, a cis woman couldn't do that. Any woman couldn't do that.
Colleen McCarty 39:44
No. No. Can you imagine
Leslie Briggs 39:48
a trans woman especially couldn't do that.
Colleen McCarty 39:51
Oh, God, no.
Leslie Briggs 39:52
Imagine all the sexual perversion that would be an insult that would be thrown at that individual's. Life.
Colleen McCarty 40:02
Yeah. And it's like it's not like there's any shortage of public information out there about this person's like behavior. But it took us like five minutes to find that less than that to find that stuff, right? But nobody was even looking.
Leslie Briggs 40:19
Alright, so hit me with the names of his fetish accounts.
Colleen McCarty 40:22
Okay, so these are some of the Fetish accounts that he followed from his like,
Leslie Briggs 40:27
it actually wasn't his business account although he was like doing mostly business on it. It was Jim underscore Luman..
Colleen McCarty 40:36
Okay, so it was his personal account but he was posting a lot of work stuff from it. He follows a lot of chiropractors and other lawyers on it so he operates his business somewhat at least yeah affiliates has been since with this account fully affiliates his business with the account and also friends and and boyfriends out there. Everyone can see who you follow on Instagram even if your accounts private. I just want you to know that little little tipo from me tipo but here's some of the names so the accounts Okay. Female strong legs legs appreciation society
Leslie Briggs 41:23
I haven't heard these
Colleen McCarty 41:26
girls and legs huh like ready for this one, but
Leslie Briggs 41:37
I don't know.
Colleen McCarty 41:39
Calf cravings.
Leslie Briggs 41:41
Got the way you hit the C's. culf. colf. the calf cravings.
Colleen McCarty 42:00
Okay, there's more. Good. Wait, okay, so also among these are several female bodybuilders. Okay, so okay, you're into lifting heavy things. That's cool, but most of them are naked. Oh, naked lifting. The other nice one is my sexy stilettos.
Leslie Briggs 42:29
No,
Colleen McCarty 42:30
yep. And we've got hot strong legs what Yeah, girl strong legs and strong legs and calf cravings.
Leslie Briggs 42:43
Oh my god.
Colleen McCarty 42:46
And we have sexy muscle Woman
Leslie Briggs 42:54
Oh my god.
Colleen McCarty 42:55
None of these on their own word enough to be oh I do just want to indicate that sexy muscle woman was followed two follows after Tommy Lehren oh
Leslie Briggs 43:14
he's not following Tomi for the Tommy. Tommy Lauren. He's not only Tommy for the politics.
Colleen McCarty 43:24
And then we have Blake Shelton Of course.
Leslie Briggs 43:26
Oh, Blake
Colleen McCarty 43:27
with a couple followers below that diamond calves. Yeah I hate that. I have the diamond colves. Sorry. Diamond calves. I cant say calves appropriately anymore.
Leslie Briggs 43:54
Oh, it's so many.
Colleen McCarty 43:56
Yeah. So
Leslie Briggs 44:01
he's posting about his business from this account. He's like, he's pretty he's actually saying need a lawyer call us on this account. Yeah, but he's not a lawyer by the way. Not a lawyer.
Colleen McCarty 44:12
No, ma'am. Sexy muscle woman. I mean, listen, I'm all for mixing business and pleasure but like this some something a little bit weird.
Leslie Briggs 44:28
Like this is all just nonsense. It's all nonsense.
Colleen McCarty 44:31
Yeah, I mean, but also like mixed in here is like, okay, Pain Treatment Center. And revolution chiropractic, and enlightened chiropractic from Oklahoma City. Like, I mean, like we're clearly Chiro concepts Tulsa. We're clearly mixing business and pleasure Yes, legs Appreciation Society right down from watts Chiropractic Clinic. I mean, Whatever, send all the feet pics you want folks do what you got to do in this economy? I don't know.
Leslie Briggs 45:08
Because like, I guess it's like, do people a question query doesn't matter if you're going to do business with him what his sexual fetishes are.
Colleen McCarty 45:16
I mean, that's what people keep saying about the LGBTQ conversation as it's like, I don't care about your sexual preferences. I just want to do business with you shut up about it. Don't put it in my face. And then it's like, yeah, this.
Leslie Briggs 45:30
Right, right. Right. There's it's like this, it is fully it is it is emblematic of this double standard in society where a cis man can put his sexual fetish out there on his public Instagram, post about his business, and there's no repercussion. There's no one going. There's no morality piece ringing the alarm and saying, we're not doing business with this guy. Like it? Like? I don't know, I guess I'm not saying that it should, at some level. Be free. On some level. I'm just saying that like, there's a double standard here. And he's benefiting from it completely.
Colleen McCarty 46:06
Yeah. And one of the benefits of doing this on a podcast is we have the ability to put all of the things we can verify in this format, and let people make a decision about what they believe or not. Right? And this would never be admissible in court, and it would never be so it shouldn't be. It really shouldn't be because it's not indicative of whether or not he's an abuser. No, it's not it. But it is indicative of a double standard where he's allowed to act in a way that like every other person on the planet, every other gender identity on the planet cannot. without suffering and consequence. Yeah, name, legitimate name, another gender identity, or sexual orientation that could have their sexual kinks on an account where they're doing business, other than a porn star, other than a porn star. Yeah. No, there isn't. Sex workers.
Leslie Briggs 46:56
Yeah. But that's, I mean, that is it. Anybody trying to do it, especially in the legal business?
Colleen McCarty 47:02
Yeah. Like this is a professional business. It's like the professional business. There's like accountants, architects, lawyers, and doctors,
Leslie Briggs 47:10
engineers, might be sad about being left out
Colleen McCarty 47:10
engineers, he
Leslie Briggs 47:11
said about being with sorry, engineer, sorry, engineers.
Colleen McCarty 47:15
But ya know, I mean, it's not like it's still pretty taboo in those fields,
Leslie Briggs 47:22
to be like to publicly have your kinks out there.
Colleen McCarty 47:24
I just don't know. I just honestly, Leslie, don't think he even thought about it. No, I don't think he realized people could see it. And I don't possibly I just don't think he could even like thought twice about it. No, I
Leslie Briggs 47:36
think you're right. It's like,
Colleen McCarty 47:37
I see that. I like that. I want that. I'm going to look at that. I don't care about anything else. Right. Impulsive, right.
Leslie Briggs 47:47
Of course, the most obvious and widely frowned upon and criminalized tactic of abuse is physical violence. There are many warning signs that someone might become physically violent. Jim in particular, uses play violence, like small hits, or slaps at first to get his victims more comfortable with physical pain being part of their relationship.
Christen 48:10
Hello, he was living at the support the house and Donna's house at the time. And we, we ended up downtown Tulsa, we go to the max and have really a fun time. And like video games and stuff like that. And then we went to the center of the universe. And we're checking it out. I think he'd been there before. I've been there before. So no big deal. And he was like, hold on, and he takes his iPhone, he sets it over on the side of the things goes to record. And he like does this can't remember really the words that were said about you know, being married now. We're married or whatever, and then we and then right after we kissed he slaps me in the face. Like, not like not like, you know, I fall down flat but a slap in the face and like he laughs and that's all I'm reporting.
Leslie Briggs 49:10
Often Jim will introduce a small act of violence into the relationship to test waters for what's to come. We have
Karrah 49:16
all started out it before the bed part before we even went to dinner. I had been alone in this hotel room with him for not very long at all. I walked by him I got hit by his belt in the butt as I'm walking to the bathroom. I got to the bathroom and I just started crying. And because I've never been hit like that by your my parents. I feel like I got spanked like twice my whole life and I probably earned you know like, but never with a belt. You know, I was never a never been hit with a belt and it just made me cry. And I remember him coming out of the bathroom trying to hide the fact that I was crying. And he was like, oh my god, don't be a crazy bitch, please don't be a crazy bitch. And I was just like, I'm not. I'm not a crazy bitch, I promise, you know, and I was just like, I promise I'm not a crazy bitch, you know, and I didn't want to be what he was saying. I was, you know. And that was the first thing that was the first time he hurt me. And it was within minutes of actually being in Branson. He played it off as being playful. It was it did not feel playful, because it hurt. And, and he basically was making me feel crazy for crying when he was just playing with me. Yeah.
Colleen McCarty 50:50
Do you think he was like testing you?
Karrah 50:52
I do. I do think he was testing me. I think he was trying to, to see if what I would put up with honestly does to see. And I actually, I went to my car. I went to my car and I sat in my car by myself. And I, I want to see I smoke some weed, because I was like, freaking, like, I need to figure out how to leave this guy here. And leave. And I went and then he ended up coming to my car begged me to come back inside, where we actually went to dinner, and drank and then he pounded the whole dinner. Dinner was awful.
Leslie Briggs 51:39
Tell us more about that. What happened?
Karrah 51:43
We were at dinner in which the The dinner was we just walked to dinner because it was right by where our cheapest little Outback hotel was like that he got with his mom's credit card. By the way. I'm sorry, his mom's debit card. So Red flag number 12. We ended up eating and he the whole time at dinner. He wouldn't speak. He was pouting. looking angry. Looking down at the table anytime I would like say anything. He would just just dismiss me like I was bothering him in some way. So I'm just over there getting shit faced so I can just enjoy myself, you know? And then my my drunkenness is annoying him. And I think looking back I think he was arguing with Amber. Or maybe Kristen. Okay, Kristen. I later found out that him and Kristen were supposed to go out of town that weekend Kristen and in Jim were supposed to be on a on a trip to Eureka Springs together. That weekend. She rented a car and everything he took me to Branson.
Leslie Briggs 52:57
Last week, you heard there's a lot of driving in these relationships. Some of the most frightening acts of violence have happened in the victims cars.
Marci 53:08
Wasn't a cause me to slam on the brakes. Something I wanted out again as he did something and it caused me to slam on the brakes so hard and I took the side of the road. And he was so mad about that. He punched my windshield. And when I talked to one of the other victims, I was adequate to different victims. I was told that like he punched him in the face while they were driving. And whenever I look back, I'm like he punched the windshield instead of my face. Probably I mean, like looking back, you know, makes me think that's probably his mindset was just guessing. It's already cracked. And then when he punched it spider when he gets fired or cracked. And then in another car, he when we were on the road, he busted a windshield and that one wasn't cracked already. And I honestly I can't remember why he punched it I can't remember. But like, at the time, I was like, you know, I'd like to tell him to get out of the car. But it was a little scared to do that. So it just drove and I can't even remember like the points after that. So we're in his mom's car, and I'm dragging his mom's car and he's got a scan. He says we'll stop and he takes this coffee cup. It's like metal or whatever and he takes it out into the road. And he shoots at it and misses a few times and then hits it and brings it back in. and shuts the door. And then I remember right? That's like, right when he grabs the gun and puts it under, like, he's in the passenger seat on the driver's seat, and he puts it under my chin. And he asked me, What do I look for? And I'm just like, not sure what to say, you know, like, what's the right answer? And he says something like, you know, I just want you to know how it feels to be me so much. He wanted me to know what it was like, all the pressures of being him. And then, obviously, he didn't pull the trigger. And we went, drove back into town, and went to his mother's. Actually, I think I got him to calm down by telling him like, I would go get breakfast for him at the restaurant in town. And he was fine with that. So I dropped him off, went and got breakfast. And then I came back. And he was in an argument with this mother, and throwing stuff in the house and even like through a vacuum, and then it turned on, and it was like, I was sitting there. And I was like, why am I here right now. And I The door was right beside me. So I looked,
Leslie Briggs 56:28
especially with the prevalence of firearms in Oklahoma, many threats of violence and abusive relationships involve guns.
Marci 56:35
When I found when he went to sleep early, and his phone was getting this previous at the top from some other girl, and I was like, what, and I curious, took his phone to the bathroom and just read everything. And then I knew he was playing so many women at once. And it was I was pretty shocked. He woke up to see me with his phone. He was like, Really, and absolutely just upset and told me to sit over here, you know, and then he pushed me up against the wall and had me by the throat, spit my face. And I said, I can't believe it just in my face. Like, you know, I was freaking out. And we were probably like, the wall next to us was the front desk. So that saved me. He's, he said, we're leaving, you're packing your shirt. And we're leaving right now. And just be quiet. When we walk through here, whatever, you know, it was like, okay, so we get in the car. And he, he brought a gun down there with us. He typically had one or whatever. But it's not like he ever got it out, you know, or anything. But that time he got it out. I feel like to intimidate me to just drive and have it unzipped and set it between the two of us in the car. And I'm pretty sure he took my phone. And you know, I wasn't to contact anybody or whatever. I was just supposed to just drop them off. And I did. And I don't know what happened after that. Obviously, I saw him again. Oftentimes alcohol
Karrah 58:22
was involved. I know that the last the last weekend that the final time I ever saw him he we stopped and got at this liquor store and got this banana schnapps. And he called it as Panty Remover drink. And basically, he chucked it and got violent, like, it was just instant, like he and he does that. I mean, that was kind of like he, he would basically pick something that I was doing wrong, and then he would go off on that. That's what would start every fight was just something that he would pick out about me that I was doing wrong.
Leslie Briggs 59:04
When you begin to change your behavior to hide things like bruises or changes to your body, that's a big red flag.
Heather 59:13
Um, the kids now looking back, they were one was a junior and one had just graduated high school. When I met him. Um, the kids will comment now about, they used to call us the house of nakedness. We're all girls. So my poor ex husband, we ran around all the time in our underwear because we were just a bunch of girls running around. And they would comment on how they notice. I wouldn't do that anymore. I wouldn't get in the shower after one of them was getting out. And the reason was that I was covered in bruises from the back of my neck down. Often the
Leslie Briggs 59:47
stress of big events like weddings or vacations. Can see someone act out physically.
Heather 59:53
I'll know that the night before the wedding. She and I were driving around in Oklahoma down in Do you remember the row Boston pull rope? So we're driving around around around he gets this random text message that says I love you. person sending the text messages Nikki says we're Nikki starts fumbling into all of this. So I take issue with that because at this point, I've not gotten my ass kicked. And I say to him, Listen, if I'm going to marry you, I don't want some other woman texting that they love you. And you not saying listen, I'm getting married. Um, it caused quite an argument. He ended up I said, You know what, just take me back to your mom's house. Let me pack take me to the airport. I'll just go home. Because my daughter had driven me down to Cleveland and dropped me off from Iowa. She drove me all the way down, turn around, drove all the way back. So I'm down there, no car, no nothing. So he takes me back to his mom's and continues to drive around, drink, drink, drink. He at some point, I'm sure I started off on the phone on via text. I said, just come back and take me to the airport. And he came in and I happened to be in the bathroom in his mom's house. He came in and fish hooked me. And then just got my face and sort of screaming at him and he's like, Get your shit. Let's fucking go. So it loads everything up, puts it in the car and starts driving but I don't know where we are. I have no clue. And he started showing me fields and little timbered areas that he could just put me in my suitcase and leave me there nobody find me.
Colleen McCarty 1:02:32
This has been a tour of the red flags and gyms relationships, which we find are actually pretty common in a lot of abusive relationships like these. Our hope and sharing these stories this way is to both tell the story of Jim's reign of terror on so many women, but also to educate anyone who might find themselves in a relationship like this. Many survivors we hear from tell us that they did not know they were in an abusive relationship because pain and dysfunction was all they knew in their life. We hope these stories will help you put words to your experiences and also let you know that you are not alone. And the next episode, you will hear the combination of these red flags for the women who have survived Jim lumen, we will allow the survivors of his abuse to tell their stories in their words, like they have never been able to before. This is the true crime story that happens before the True Crime Story. Most stories we hear are after someone's been killed. And we wonder what we could have done. How could we have prevented it? How could we have kept her alive? We're telling you these stories now so you can keep her alive. Keep telling the stories, keep telling the truth, and keep speaking out against violence. You can find links to pictures, documents and all our sources in the show notes of this episode. These cases serve as a reminder of the devastating consequences of domestic violence and the importance of seeking help if you or someone you know is a victim. If you are in immediate danger, please call 911 or your local emergency number. For confidential support and resources you can reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233. Thank you for listening to panic button Operation Wildfire and for joining us and shedding light on the importance of ending domestic violence for good.
Branjae 1:04:27
Put your hands together. If you leave then put your hands together if you go.
Colleen McCarty 1:04:36
Panic Button is a production of Oklahoma Appleseed Center for Law and Justice were recorded at Bison and beam studios in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Our theme music is by Gyom. And additional editing is provided by The Wave Podcasting. Our music supervisor is Rusty Rowe. Special thanks to our interns Kat and Alison to learn more about Oklahoma Appleseed or donate to keep our mission of fighting for the rights and opportunities of every Oklahoman areality go to okappleseed.org.